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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  9/17/2014
Choice News SATURDAY, SEP 4, 2010  |  91 comments
Blasphemous: A worship service put on by clowns?

EDMONTON - When a long-time member of his congregation asked if she and some amateur clowns could put on a worship service, Rev. Jim Lochhead had just one tiny request.

Could he be one of those who'd be painting up their faces and wearing funny clothes?

Last Sunday morning, Lochhead was among nine clowns who strode into the sanctuary at McClure United Church to the taped sounds of Send In The Clowns.

The pantomime worship service brought glorious laughter and applause. Best of all, the service apparently connected with the congregation at a deeper level. ...


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Page 1 | Page 2 ·  Found: 91 user comment(s)
News Item9/10/10 12:14 AM
Randy  Find all comments by Randy
HornNest wrote:
You read all that into the passage?!!
Conversion was a radical felt change, but is not a daily experience
I don't look to "feel" the Lord near me. I seek to believe his word and obey him. And guess what? He proves himself to me, by giving me understanding, proving faithful to his promises, giving deliverance from sin, giving a love for spiritual things, answering prayers etc. It is this way that I have a relationship with him. Out of love for him I do the things that he wants me to do, and he for his part does loads more for me. Like in a marriage where the partners love each other. They don't bang on about their "love" as a feeling, but they show their love by actions! That is the union, that is the fellowship (or sharing)!!
What you're banging on about is some sort of mystical "felt" spiritual union! Some sort of felt Spirit to Spirit communication. QED you're a mystic!
You guys have gotten so far off topic that this thread will not last much longer. Why don't yopu just hit the little envolope icon and e amil John. Instead of clogging the whole thread with your debate?
71

News Item9/9/10 7:54 PM
HornNest  Find all comments by HornNest
John UK wrote:
....And just as it is impossible for a man and a woman to "join", and then for the man to say, "Well I never felt a thing", ...... Of course the feeling is spiritual, but that is a faculty given by God in order to KNOW him and delight in HIM. It is a SENSE that the unbeliever knows nothing of.
You read all that into the passage?!!

Conversion was a radical felt change, but is not a daily experience

I don't look to "feel" the Lord near me. I seek to believe his word and obey him. And guess what? He proves himself to me, by giving me understanding, proving faithful to his promises, giving deliverance from sin, giving a love for spiritual things, answering prayers etc. It is this way that I have a relationship with him. Out of love for him I do the things that he wants me to do, and he for his part does loads more for me. Like in a marriage where the partners love each other. They don't bang on about their "love" as a feeling, but they show their love by actions! That is the union, that is the fellowship (or sharing)!!

What you're banging on about is some sort of mystical "felt" spiritual union! Some sort of felt Spirit to Spirit communication. QED you're a mystic!

70

News Item9/9/10 7:00 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
HornNest wrote:
The passage is talking about a spiritual fact, not about a felt experience! Note my words with care, "...some mystical ***spirit to spirit experience*** that you cannot even explain...".
Let us have a look:

Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:15-17 KJV

Note the comparison between a man and a woman "joined" "shall be one flesh".

A sinner "joined" to the Lord is one spirit. That is, a spirit to spirit, spiritual "joining".

And just as it is impossible for a man and a woman to "join", and then for the man to say, "Well I never felt a thing", so it is impossible for a sinner to be "joined" to the Lord, and for him to say, "Well I suppose it is a fact, but I never felt anything at all." That would be ludicrous. Of course the feeling is spiritual, but that is a faculty given by God in order to KNOW him and delight in HIM. It is a SENSE that the unbeliever knows nothing of.

69

News Item9/9/10 6:50 PM
HornNest  Find all comments by HornNest
John UK wrote:
...Here's my question:
You say: "It is one thing to say that the truth impacts on you in a certain way, it is quite another to talk of some mystical spirit to spirit experience that you cannot even explain, which is what you were advocating earlier. That is pure mysticism, and no amount of dressing it up in Christian terminology will make it genuine Christianity!"
So how do you explain 1 Cor 6:16-17?
The passage is talking about a spiritual fact, not about a felt experience! Note my words with care, "...some mystical ***spirit to spirit experience*** that you cannot even explain...".
68

News Item9/9/10 5:44 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
HornNest wrote:
Care to cite where I said that? Or do you want to own up to lying?
As for the mystical union, what does this have to do with "mysticism"? Or are you saying that somehow the use of "mystical" justifies your mysticism?
Oh Horn, so you DO know him? That's experiential ol' bean.

I never mentioned mysticism, you brought that one up. I've been talking about experiential biblical Christianity. Say, did you like the article? I thought it was great, and I was richly blessed by reading it.

Hey I realise you've not answered any of my questions, but what question do you want answering? I'll answer in a jiffy.

Here's my question:

You say: "It is one thing to say that the truth impacts on you in a certain way, it is quite another to talk of some mystical spirit to spirit experience that you cannot even explain, which is what you were advocating earlier. That is pure mysticism, and no amount of dressing it up in Christian terminology will make it genuine Christianity!"

So how do you explain 1 Cor 6:16-17?

67

News Item9/9/10 5:38 PM
HornNest  Find all comments by HornNest
John UK wrote:
....You say you don't KNOW him, you only know "about" him........
Care to cite where I said that? Or do you want to own up to lying?

Care to address the lies in your previous post too? Answer the question in the 2nd para of my last to you?

As for the mystical union, what does this have to do with "mysticism"? Or are you saying that somehow the use of "mystical" justifies your mysticism?

Oh BTW "noticed" the saying is the Pot calling the Kettle black! Lol

66

News Item9/9/10 10:43 AM
noticed  Find all comments by noticed
HornNest wrote:
John UK up to his usual ad hominem attacks!
Talk about the kettle calling the pot black!!

If you want to see ad hominem check your own list of posts hornets nest.

65

News Item9/9/10 5:39 AM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
HornNest wrote:
John....
Its real funny that in your book, anyone who does not agree with you is necessarily unsaved!! A very sad commentary on your Christian outlook!!
Horn, there plenty of folks on these forums who disagree with me and whom I still regard as brethren in Christ. You are different, because you haven't given me any cause to believe that you are "reconciled to God". You say you don't KNOW him, you only know "about" him.

Sin separates between us and our God, even for believers. Can you not see that forgiveness through repentance and faith in Christ removes that barrier and restores fellowship? Do you not believe in the INDWELLING of GOD in mans' soul?

Tell you what, have a gaze over this short, scripture-packed article by a Lutheran seminarian. I did a search just for you, to find a decent article relating to this subject and, having read through it myself, can see nothing wrong there. And please focus your thoughts on THE SCRIPTURE not on the fact Stump was a Lutheran professor of theology.

The Mystical Union

64

News Item9/8/10 9:09 PM
Jessica Dawson | Canada  Find all comments by Jessica Dawson
Neil wrote:
"And some of the Holy Spirit's provision is comforts and delights to the emotions"
Very true, but it is not necessarily related to humor.
Eating good food, for example, is a joy for me, but I'm not laughing about it. The Law of God is delightful to read & meditate (think) about, but not because it's funny.
BTW, I've had the misfortune of dealing with supposedly Spirit-filled Christians, able to pour out tearful prayers, who were utterly blind to injustice, either their own or from church leaders.
Neil, I totally agree!
63

News Item9/8/10 7:01 PM
HornNest  Find all comments by HornNest
John UK wrote:
Tom
...
What liberals and modernists mean by lack of experience is that no man can have any actual spiritual or physical interaction with God. Thus man can only have some sort of vague groping after him in the dark, never quite getting there.
..But while God is sovereign in redemption, there is hope for him yet, and I would not write him off as unsaveable.
John UK up to his usual ad hominem attacks! Can't answer the case, so misrepresent and make a personal attack!

John, how do the accusations you make in your 1st two paras. sit with what I stated in the 2nd para. of my post?! Or you saying that Christians who have experienced the kind of work that I mention but who do not subscribe to your mysticism are all liberals?!

Its real funny that in your book, anyone who does not agree with you is necessarily unsaved!! A very sad commentary on your Christian outlook!!

62

News Item9/8/10 5:23 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
"And some of the Holy Spirit's provision is comforts and delights to the emotions"

Very true, but it is not necessarily related to humor.

Eating good food, for example, is a joy for me, but I'm not laughing about it. The Law of God is delightful to read & meditate (think) about, but not because it's funny.

BTW, I've had the misfortune of dealing with supposedly Spirit-filled Christians, able to pour out tearful prayers, who were utterly blind to injustice, either their own or from church leaders.

61

News Item9/8/10 5:18 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Tom

I am sure Horn would not call himself a liberal modernist religious, BUT then he does not seem to see the similarities between their "lack of experience" formal centred theology and his own views.

What liberals and modernists mean by lack of experience is that no man can have any actual spiritual or physical interaction with God. Thus man can only have some sort of vague groping after him in the dark, never quite getting there.

Liberals and modernists reject the powerful resurrection of spirit known as regeneration, they also reject the possibility of being filled with the Spirit, anointed with the Spirit, empowered by the Spirit, or experiencing fellowship with the Father and with the Son, as also they reject rejoicing with joy unspeakable and full of glory. They reject the Bible story about Moses's face shining, the Bible story about The Transfiguration, indeed they seem to reject most if not all of scripture, especially the passage in the New Testament which deals with spirit-to-spirit experiential Christianity, preferring rather to sit in shadows and agnosticism, writing vague books about nonsense.

But while God is sovereign in redemption, there is hope for him yet, and I would not write him off as unsaveable.

60

News Item9/8/10 4:53 PM
HornNest  Find all comments by HornNest
Jim Lincoln wrote:
For those who don't have this Charismatic Chaos, you should go somewhere and get a copy, but to make things shorter, Combating Charismatic Theology from which,
Jim

I am sure that John UK would not call himself a "charismatic", BUT then he does NOT seem to see the similarities between their "experience" centered theology and his own views.

What Christians in the past meant by "experiential Christianity" is that Christians must experience God's dealings with them. So giving light, guiding, answering prayer, sanctification, fruit for labour etc.

But, here we have John UK who seems to see "experiential Christianity" principally as "feelings", as "contact with the Holy Spirit", as some felt "anointing" or "empowering" etc. Sadly he cannot see that this is pure, misguided and dangerous mysticism!!

59

News Item9/8/10 3:43 PM
Jessica Dawson | Canada  Find all comments by Jessica Dawson
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance:"

There is nothing wrong with feelings so long as they are inspired by The Holy Spirit. There is no law against the fruit of The Holy Spirit: And some of the Holy Spirit's provision is comforts and delights to the emotions: Such as peace and joy! Joy is a lovely gift to the spirit and also lifts the emotions! Who did Jesus say steals our joy? Why, the devil of course!

Those who do not have normal ranges of emotions and have no empathy towards others, are often diagnosed as sociopaths or psychopaths. Since they do not have a normal range of emotions: Which includes empathy, sympathy and love, they can end up manipulating people or killing people. They often mimic socially acceptable behaviour, but don't have the emotional capacity to understand why courteous behaviour is socially acceptable.

People with mental illness often have damaged emotions, that are really flat: Many suffer because they are not able to feel any joy!

"The joy of The LORD is your strength."

God loves a cheerful giver! God's Word explains that we should not grieve over the tithes we give him! Jesus Himself was moved with compassion, He also shed tears. ...The greatest of these is

58

News Item9/8/10 1:48 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
For those who don't have this Charismatic Chaos, you should go somewhere and get a copy, but to make things shorter, Combating Charismatic Theology from which,
Dick Mayhue wrote:
Experience is not self-validating. Rather, the absolute Word of God serves to authoritatively distinguish between the true and the false. All experience must submit itself to the Scripture’s test for authenticity....
57

News Item9/8/10 12:46 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
HornNest wrote:
Oh boy! Yes, let's get down to basics. You were writing about "experiences". There are many things that God works in us which are not "experiences" - IOW you don't feel them!
Are you saying there are some things that God works in us which "are" experiences, which are felt? Maybe you are thinking of Samson who felt God's power upon him, or Elijah, or Elisha who wanted a double portion.

Tell me Horn, have you ever spoken privately to an anointed gospel preacher, and asked him what he experiences before ascending to the pulpit? Or...

Have you listened to Ian Paisley's account of the first Free Presbyterian prayer meeting, in which he and two or three others spent a whole day and night seeking God's blessing, not just on the new venture, but more importantly upon THEM. Oh you should!! Hearken to these great men of God, who, after THE RIVERS were poured out upon them, cried out to God: "Stay thy hand, Lord!" for fear they would perish under such a powerful experience. (And the fruit proved the experience genuine.)

Now, you claim that I make the Christian walk dependent on feelings.

Not at all.

You reckon 1 Cor 6:17 is talking about mysticism?

Ahem, we must do a study on this verse and find out.

56

News Item9/8/10 11:55 AM
HornNest  Find all comments by HornNest
John UK wrote:
Oh dear oh dear oh dear, it sounds like we really have to go back to basics, doesn't it. Well, if it helps, we must needs do it.
...
Oh boy! Yes, let's get down to basics. You were writing about "experiences". There are many things that God works in us which are not "experiences" - IOW you don't feel them!

Even the intimacy of which you speak is not really experiential in the sense that one can sense it at all times. The Christian walk is a walk of faith and not feelings!

There are times when I "feel close" to God, but actually I could be wholly mistaken! My compass for gauging a close walk is simple - how much do I obey the Lord out of love for him. This is how my faith and love manifest themselves.

You are on a slippery road when you make the Christian walk dependent on feelings!

But also, we have to note that God does the majority of things for us solely by the instrumentality of the word of God as applied by the Spirit of God. The "spirit to spirit" contact that you want to try and establish is, as I said, mysticism!

55

News Item9/8/10 4:11 AM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
HornNest wrote:
It is one thing to say that the truth impacts on you in a certain way, it is quite another to talk of some mystical spirit to spirit experience that you cannot even explain, which is what you were advocating earlier. That is pure mysticism, and no amount of dressing it up in Christian terminology will make it genuine Christianity!
Oh dear oh dear oh dear, it sounds like we really have to go back to basics, doesn't it. Well, if it helps, we must needs do it.

1. I have a spirit. God gave it me at birth, it is mine and none other. It is indestructable, eternal.

2. God is a Spirit.

3. When Spirit and my spirit come together, Spirit regenerates me, quickens me, enlightens me, illuminates me, impacts me, teaches me, moves my affections, changes my will, delights me, enraptures me, loves me, embraces me, fills me, eternally joins me to Christ.

4. Observe:

What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:16-17 KJV

Now Horn, you see the comparison Paul makes? He compares physical intimacy with spiritual intimacy. See that?

54

News Item9/8/10 12:51 AM
Jessica Dawson | Canada  Find all comments by Jessica Dawson
Romans 1:10-12 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Galatians 5:21-23 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

53

News Item9/7/10 8:04 PM
HornNest  Find all comments by HornNest
John UK wrote:
...Is not Christianity the most wonderful thing? Something to delight in every day? Sure it is, and there is nothing like a deep meditation on some sound doctrine to set to flight the devil and his cold water. Enter within the veil in prayer and meet God "face to face" as it were. It is a good remedy for the New Paths Illness.
It is one thing to say that the truth impacts on you in a certain way, it is quite another to talk of some mystical spirit to spirit experience that you cannot even explain, which is what you were advocating earlier. That is pure mysticism, and no amount of dressing it up in Christian terminology will make it genuine Christianity!
52
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