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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  7/24/2014
Choice News MONDAY, AUG 19, 2013  |  146 comments
Presbyterian Church (USA) drops In Christ Alone from hymnal

An extraordinary dispute has arisen over a lyric contained one of the most beloved contemporary Christian hymns of the modern-day Church, "In Christ Alone".

According to Bob Smietana of USA Today, the committee putting together a new hymnal for the Presbyterian Church (USA) dropped the popular hymn because the song's authors refused to change a phrase about the wrath of God.

He said that the original lyrics say that "on that cross, as Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied."

The Presbyterian Committee on Congregational Song wanted to substitute the words, "the love of God was magnified." ...


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Page 1 | Page 7 ·  Found: 146 user comment(s)
News Item8/20/13 5:35 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
I see Psalms Only you have no answers to my questions from my previous post (8/20/13 2:19 PM) Thus it shall be observed, that you are fulfilling Matthew 15:9, (KJV) "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
26

News Item8/20/13 4:16 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Psalms Only wrote:
---
Yes human hymns like these are very entertaining for human consumption. Aren't they?
Human entertainment has replaced God's praise/Psalms/Bible with human lyrics and melodies which are more appealing to humans.
I guess the boring old Psalms God ordained for praise are inadequate to your taste and amusement DJC49?
Yes indeed, for as we all know, David was more than human.
25

News Item8/20/13 4:15 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
Psalms Only wrote:
You clearly don't know your history Michael.
Psalms Only
Ahhhhh, Just how much history do I have to know the RCC is a false counterfeit imitation of genuine Biblical Christianity? One which God Himself will judge in the Great Tribulation.

BTW there just might be a difference between men like Athanasius and Augustine

Anyway thank you for your post back. I will respect what you post as your opinion.

24

News Item8/20/13 4:00 PM
Psalms Only  Find all comments by Psalms Only
Michael Hranek wrote:
AND you don't?
You clearly don't know your history Michael.
"Anselm. In particular, his doctrine of the Atonement as stated in the classic book Cur Deus Homo. You may be surprised that, with the exception of some faint echoes from certain church fathers, e.g. Clement, "Barnabas," "Epistle to Diognetus," Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius, and Augustine, there was no fully developed substitutionary theory of the Atonement until Anselm" (ritchies.net)

________

"Dr. John Gill (1697-1771) Baptist, commenting on Eph 5:19: “By psalms are meant the Psalms of David, and others that compose the book that goes with that name; and by hymns we are to understand, not such as are made by good men, without the inspiration of the Spirit of God; since they are placed between psalms and spiritual songs, made by men inspired by the Holy Ghost … but these are only another name for the book of Psalms, the running title of which may as well be the book of Hymns, as it is rendered by Ainsworth and by spiritual songs are meant the same Psalms of David, Asaph etc. and the titles of many of them are songs … These three words answer to Mizmorim, Tehillim, and Shirim, the several titles of David’s Psalms” = Thinking Baptist?

23

News Item8/20/13 2:44 PM
Psalms Only  Find all comments by Psalms Only
Lurker wrote:
He was referring
Nope wrong again Lurker.
Where do you get them from?

But the essential point in this debate is that you hymn singers are rejecting and replacing part of Scripture with human effort and output namely hymns.

By doing this they are 'replacing' inspired praise the Psalms which God has ordained for His praise; - with human uninspired productions ie hymns.

As for Paul's "Psalms Hymns and Songs" :-
The study of the Hebrew descriptions in ancient copies includes in the list:-
Hymns of Praise of God.
Elegies.
Didactic Psalms.
Liturgical Songs.
Pilgrim songs.
These would have all had special times and circumstances during the Temple worship. Obviously the Book of Psalms has a history of worship relating to Temple liturgy and other events which would require study.

___________________

DJC49 wrote:
"Amazing Grace" and "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God"
Yes human hymns like these are very entertaining for human consumption. Aren't they?

Human entertainment has replaced God's praise/Psalms/Bible with human lyrics and melodies which are more appealing to humans.

I guess the boring old Psalms God ordained for praise are inadequate to your taste and amusement DJC49?

22

News Item8/20/13 2:40 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
Psalms Only wrote:
You seem to have a problem with Anselm?
Psalms Only
AND you don't???

Hmmmm? I want to be respectful as I might and get you to think honestly so please do take my consideration as one of genuine care for you as a person.

Could that be you as a reformed presbyterian type believer have more let's use the word "affection" for the baby sprinkling idolatrous RCC and its false teachers and teachings than you do for the word of God and (quote) Baptists?

Perhaps a great deal of that is in this:
As a Baptist who believes in the Sovereignty of God I would hold:
The Grace of God is NOT opposed to effort
Grace ought to motivate effort
Grace is opposed to merit

Which seems to be something "reformed types" forget from time to time and thus without thinking accuse Baptists who would encourage people to actually seek God and believe His Promises (things nobody does apart from His grace) as being somekind of (quote) Arminians

BTW the Spirit of God did not have to anticipate the reformers to give men the doctrine of substitutionary atonement as He had already moved holy men of God to wonderfully include it in Scripture, thank you very much, AND put it in words even Baptists can understand 1 Cor 15:3,4

21

News Item8/20/13 2:19 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Psalms Only wrote:
...
Hymns and other forms of human entertainments are supplanted to replace ...
You still come across as smug. However will concede, for now, the point that Paul may have been talking about different types of psalms since you and John UK brought that up, will research that one. So, are you saying that the songs in the book of Revelation are NOT proper worship songs? The problem is your definition of "words of man" make it appear that David (a man), Moses (a man), Asaph (a man) and other authors of Psalms, did not write songs from their own experience, but actually only wrote what was dictated to them by God. You take a song like Great is Thy Faithfulness and you find words from Genesis, James, Lamentations, and Judges. How firm a foundation has words from Isaiah and the Psalms. I have sung Matthew 6:33, Nehemiah 8:10 and Romans 14:17 and Isaiah 6:3. So, are you saying the ONLY Scriptures that are valid for songs are found in the Psalms? God only gave songs to those under the Old Covenant? Really?? Your problem is that your view of God is very narrow, you think He only accepts praise from His people when they use songs based upon the book of Psalms,(poor Enoch,Noah,Job,Abraham,etc) my God is not that small or limited.
20

News Item8/20/13 2:10 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Psalms Only, everything the Hebrew people sang before the Psalms were blasphemy then?

If a song doesn't include the name of Christ, which no Psalm does, they probably should be thrown out because we're Christians and not Jews.

I do like it that you explained more about Anselm, not the the PCUSA is really interested in doctrine that much or they wouldn't be doing what they are doing, The Christian Research Institute makes a mention of Anselm in Justification: The Catholic-Protestant Argument over Justification

Too much is made of the Church "Fathers" e.g., Theology Adrift: The Early Church Fathers and Their Views of Eschatology, and not enough on the Bible.

19

News Item8/20/13 12:05 PM
Psalms Only  Find all comments by Psalms Only
Michael Hranek wrote:
let me ask our "Psalms Only" friend again ... Anselm
The question has already been answered below. However to repeat the answer for you. The reason Anselm was referred to was because he is part of the debate in the article. In fact he is central to it.

You seem to have a problem with Anselm?
But in point of fact he was more orthodox than an Arminian like you.
Calling him a quote RC bishop is inaccurate.

Quote;
"Anselm came on the scene when “a ransom to Satan” was still being taught and assumed to be correct. His landmark work Cur Deus Homo? (Why God became man?) set dogmatics on a new direction, much more biblically grounded.
Anselm anticipates the Reformers in their doctrine of the atonement and our appropriation of it.
Sin an insult to God...a breaking of God’s Law
Anselm described sin as an affront and insult to God's majesty. While it is true as far as it goes, Anselm's concepts are taken from a king or feudal landlord whose dignity has been besmirched.
The Reformers went further than that; in a more biblical sense, sin is the breaking of God's law, which demands death to the offender."
"Secondly, Anselm saw the need for satisfaction" (temalta.com) = = This relates to this article.

18

News Item8/20/13 11:56 AM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
Psalms Only wrote:
1. Paul writing this 2000 years ago clearly was not referring to the uninspired hymns which are used today written in the last couple of hundred years.
Paul was in fact referring to the Book of Psalms contained in the Word of God which contains Psalms, Hymns and spiritual songs.
2. Why don't you people read the article???
Quote from article:-
""People think that we've taken the wrath of God out of the hymnal," Bringle said. "That's not the case. It's all over the hymnal. The issue was the word 'satisfied.'""
So NO it isn't about "WRATH" -
Remember all you "hymn singers" - Sing man's invented uninspired hymns and you are rejecting and replacing what God has ordained and included in the Bible for HIS praise.
If you attend these Liberal and Arminian churches of today you will NOT hear the psalms used. They have been rejected like the rest of the Bible for mans religious inventions. It is the thin end of the wedge for eventual apostasy.
Hymns and other forms of human entertainments are supplanted to replace genuine Biblical worship of the Lord.
******************

Well, if you are correct then out goes "Amazing Grace" and "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" et al.

No thank you!

17

News Item8/20/13 11:13 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Psalms Only wrote:
Ephesians 5:19 Paul writing this 2000 years ago clearly was not referring to the uninspired hymns which are used today written in the last couple of hundred years.
Paul was in fact referring to the Book of Psalms contained in the Word of God which contains Psalms, Hymns and spiritual songs.
Nope.

He was referring to the unrecorded songs of Zion (Psalm 137, Is 35:10) which everyone who has truly been delivered from the bondage of sin and wrath sings with thanksgiving as they rejoice in the liberty of the sons and daughters of God purchased for them by Christ Jesus our Redeemer.

Yet, your militant puritanical clan would burn these at the stake for not bowing down to your misguided interpretations.

May God have mercy on your dead, blind, stony souls.

16

News Item8/20/13 9:41 AM
Psalms Only  Find all comments by Psalms Only
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
1. Ephesians 5:19 (KJV) Speaking to

2. I also, concur with Paul from Northern Ireland on why the hymn was dropped excellent post.

1. Paul writing this 2000 years ago clearly was not referring to the uninspired hymns which are used today written in the last couple of hundred years.
Paul was in fact referring to the Book of Psalms contained in the Word of God which contains Psalms, Hymns and spiritual songs.

2. Why don't you people read the article???
Quote from article:-
""People think that we've taken the wrath of God out of the hymnal," Bringle said. "That's not the case. It's all over the hymnal. The issue was the word 'satisfied.'""

So NO it isn't about "WRATH" -

Remember all you "hymn singers" - Sing man's invented uninspired hymns and you are rejecting and replacing what God has ordained and included in the Bible for HIS praise.

If you attend these Liberal and Arminian churches of today you will NOT hear the psalms used. They have been rejected like the rest of the Bible for mans religious inventions. It is the thin end of the wedge for eventual apostasy.

Hymns and other forms of human entertainments are supplanted to replace genuine Biblical worship of the Lord.

15

News Item8/20/13 5:52 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Ephesians 5:19 (KJV) Speaking to yourselves in psalms AND HYMNS AND SPIRITUAL SONGS, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord
Matthew 26:30 (KJV) And when they had sung an HYMN, they went out into the mount of Olives.
I read the songs in the book of Revelation sung by the redeemed in heaven and find none of them from the Psalms.
Praise God, we should sing the Psalms, great wealth of material there to be used to lift and glorify our Lord, but Psalms Only is not a teaching we find in the Word of God.
Apparently, when Paul mentions psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, he was talking about the three main groups of psalms, so that in his day his words would have been understood to have meant the psalms in all their variety.

I don't know if this is justification for psalms-only singing in worship, but it certainly shows that this verse (and another similar one) may not be used as a proof text for singing what we understand as hymns, nor for the charismatic understanding of "spiritual songs" being "singing in tongues".

But the Revelation songs, well there might be an argument there.

14

News Item8/20/13 12:27 AM
Veritas Forum  Find all comments by Veritas Forum
I served st a P C U S A Church and they were extremely liberal. This is no suprise that they would compromise the Bible, the faith and Christ himself in their efforts to appease a sinful world.
13

News Item8/19/13 9:43 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Psalms Only wrote:
... Psalms Only is the way to go and even God agrees with the theology established in them.
What a pity you hymn singers have such a polemical life when the Lord has already established His praise and recorded it in the Bible for His Church.
Ephesians 5:19 (KJV) Speaking to yourselves in psalms AND HYMNS AND SPIRTUAL SONGS, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord

Matthew 26:30 (KJV) And when they had sung an HYMN, they went out into the mount of Olives.

I read the songs in the book of Revelation sung by the redeemed in heaven and find none of them from the Psalms.

Praise God, we should sing the Psalms, great wealth of material there to be used to lift and glorify our Lord, but Psalms Only is not a teaching we find in the Word of God.

I also, concur with Paul from Northern Ireland on why the hymn was dropped excellent post.

12

News Item8/19/13 7:57 PM
Bro. James | Texas  Find all comments by Bro. James
And FYI many of the hymns we sing in my church are inspired from and in many cases quote the psalms or other scripture reference and many times in KJV English for all u KJV only boys.
11

News Item8/19/13 7:52 PM
Bro. James | Texas  Find all comments by Bro. James
Couldn't have said it better Paul!!!!'
10

News Item8/19/13 7:31 PM
Paul | Newtownabbey, Northern Ireland UK  Protected NameFind all comments by Paul
The hymn was dropped because of the reference to God's wrath. These folks don't like the idea of a God who cannot tolerate sin and who one day soon will pour out His wrath on this world with the exception of those who by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone have had their sins forgiven. These are the people who peddle the lie that a loving God won't send anyone to Hell! So the issue is God's wrath not the word "satisfied"
9

News Item8/19/13 6:50 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
Johannes Factotum wrote:
Cos dats di wun refoied to in dis noos artikil see.
Kwote
"""The issue was the word 'satisfied.'"
"That term was used by the medieval theologian Anselm, who argued that sins offended God's honor, and someone had to die in order to satisfy his honor," said Smietana."""
JF
God Himself in Scripture teaches us of the substitutionary atonement in the Bible. We don't need a RC Archbishop who preforms the blasphemy of the Mass, the supposed resacrifice of Christ daily (often for money/pay) to teach us. Remember we by the grace of God have His Holy Written Word to teach us instruct us and teach us in what we are to believe.

Now if some want their RC Archbishops I guess they will just have to go for it.

So let me ask our "Psalms Only" friend again in regard to referring to Anselm,
Why?

8

News Item8/19/13 5:37 PM
Johannes Factotum | Kakistocracy  Find all comments by Johannes Factotum
Michael Hranek wrote:
POnly
Seems strange a Psalms Only (Presbyterian) Type would refer to a Roman Catholic Archbishop and 'call' him an ancient theologian.
Why?
Cos dats di wun refoied to in dis noos artikil see.

Kwote
"""The issue was the word 'satisfied.'"
"That term was used by the medieval theologian Anselm, who argued that sins offended God's honor, and someone had to die in order to satisfy his honor," said Smietana."""

7
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