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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  9/2/2014
FRIDAY, APR 12, 2013  |  345 comments
John 3:16 Conference addresses Calvinism

While stressing that the discussion between Calvinists and non-Calvinists in the Southern Baptist Convention is a family matter, speakers at the 2013 John 3:16 Conference outlined the differences between the two views and what they believe to be the issues hindering unity among Southern Baptists.

Frank Cox, pastor of North Metro Baptist Church in Lawrenceville, Ga., which hosted the conference on March 21-22, told attendees that the event would help them "engage in the conversation going on across the nation and the Southern Baptist Convention."

Jerry Vines, pastor emeritus of First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Fla., opened the conference by saying it was not about anger or fighting anyone over these issues. ...


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Page 1 | Page 6 ·  Found: 345 user comment(s)
News Item4/17/13 11:11 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Michael Hranek wrote:
...certain Calvinists...
Michael my bro

You are not dealing with "certain Calvinists" in this thread.

If you want to argue with a hyperman, you must find him first, and then have at it.

It reminds me of Jim Lincoln who for years has been grumbling about non-existant Ruckmanites and KJV-Onlyists on these threads, yet when a REAL one turns up, namely David Preston, he has not so much as uttered a word to him. Now how do you explain THAT?

245

News Item4/17/13 11:06 AM
David Preston | Centreville, VA  Contact via emailFind all comments by David Preston
All men have a conscience. "With knowledge."
As far as Gods will is concerned it is quite obvious that not all men follow his will. I know you and I don't follow it every day.
See 2 Peter 2
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
244

News Item4/17/13 11:06 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
David Preston wrote:
The world of John 3:16, the world we live in.
The world of John 3:16, the world we live in. Will it pass away or will it abide forever?

Is it one of the two worlds of the texts I quoted and you refused to deal with?

. . .

Michael,

Thanks for your reply.

We've been down this path before and I'm not sure we are that far apart. In fact it appears we are in agreement that the atonement is sufficient for all mankind but effacious only for the elect and I have never proposed anything more than that.

So how do you apply this understanding to preaching the gospel? Is it biblical to tell a sinner God loves them, died for the remission of their sins and will give them eternal life if they call on the name of the Lord not knowing if they are a sheep or a goat which only God knows while they are yet in their sins? Is there a biblical precedent to preach this kind of message?

243

News Item4/17/13 11:03 AM
Lawb4Grace | Nevada  Find all comments by Lawb4Grace
John UK wrote:
But we know that is not the case for "all men".

And, if that's not the case for all men, because not ALL men are born again, then believing that the atonement is for the "whole world" you would also have to believe that the atonement was lacking in power. And we all know that is not possible.

I reprint my earlier post by John MacArthur regarding the Sovereignty of God and man's free will:
God's "election" and man's "free will."
God's sovereign election and man's exercise of responsibility in choosing Jesus Christ seem opposite and irreconcilable. That is why so many, well-meaning Christians throughout the history of the church have floundered trying to reconcile them. Since the problem cannot be resolved by our finite minds, the result is always to compromise one truth in favor of the other or to weaken both by trying to take a position somewhere between them.
We should let the antimony remain, believing both truths completely and leaving the harmonizing of them to God.
John MacArthur.

242

News Item4/17/13 11:02 AM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
David Preston wrote:
The world of John 3:16, the world we live in.
David Preston,
It is interesting for me to note that in the RC family and the RCC I was raised in, even RC parochial school, I simply was NOT taught John 3:16 and the idea of personally receiving Jesus Christ by faith and being born again of the Holy Spirit was maligned and ridiculed.

AND now today I see something different but so similar with certain Calvinists that they teach against and malign the thought of the world in John 3:16 meaning anything other than their definition the "elect", and neither group seems to proclaim this verse to be what it is THE PROMISE of the Sovereign God, that men ought so to believe BECAUSE IT IS TRUE and BECAUSE OF IT to in faith call upon the name of the Lord to be saved from their sins.

They way some Calvinist/Reformed tell it if God regenerates you then you will do this or that NOT if you trust His word to be the Truth and because of it call upon His name to be saved that He will honor His Promise (in line with His desire and the work of Christ on Calvary) and save you.

So for those considering consider wisely what is truly GOOD NEWS and what isn't.

Hint the 5 points of TULIP have no PROMISE whatsoever for sinners to call upon God

241

News Item4/17/13 10:53 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
David Preston wrote:
Here is another blessed verse for the whole world.
1 Tim 2
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
The problem you have there, David, is that whoever God wills to be saved, also wills that they come to the knowledge of the truth. But we know that is not the case for "all men".

Matthew 11:25-27 KJV
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Knowledge of the truth concerning God depends upon God revealing it, and he can only do that in the regenerate heart. Thus if someone believes, he understands, and if he understands, it is by revelation. "Flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee..."

240

News Item4/17/13 10:49 AM
jpw  Find all comments by jpw
David, who was Jesus telling this revelation to?
239

News Item4/17/13 10:47 AM
David Preston | Centreville, VA  Contact via emailFind all comments by David Preston
The world of John 3:16, the world we live in.
238

News Item4/17/13 10:34 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
David Preston wrote:
Here is another blessed verse for the whole world.
1 Tim 2
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Which world?

Rom 4:13 ¶ For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

237

News Item4/17/13 10:32 AM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
Lurker wrote:
I saw the posts by David and Michael last night
Lurker
I am getting a bit afield from my initial posts regarding John 3:16 dealing with total depravity, so if you would allow me, as to me the issue of (quote) total inability as some Calvinists/Reformed define the word dead/death
contrasted with
dead/death defined in terms of separation from God, from the life of God

begins to have great bearing in a discussion of the atonement being limited to only the elect or available to all but only effective in those who receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

ALONG WITH

How and in what attitude and with what insight one preaches the gospel.

Since I do NOT believe in arbitarty regeneration before and apart from repentance and faith BUT do believe spiritual death means sinners, who by nature in active enmity against God and separated from the life of God NEVERTHELESS by a supernatural work of God, including the preaching of the Gospel, the sovereign convicting work of the Holy Spirit can wonderfully bring such to repentance and saving faith in Christ

upon the PROMISE of/in the gospel that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

so in line with Romans 10:13-15

btw our Sovereign's Promise!

236

News Item4/17/13 10:24 AM
Bredon  Find all comments by Bredon
David Preston wrote:
- Jesus's atonement is not limited. It is for all to receive based on their own freewill
Ah look someone else who believes in a god who is controlled and coerced by the depraved evil hearted sinner.

How you can believe that the sinner whom the Bible states cannot discern, - somehow 'CAN' discern is incredible. Unless of course your faith is an entirely human faculty.

235

News Item4/17/13 10:24 AM
David Preston | Centreville, VA  Contact via emailFind all comments by David Preston
Here is another blessed verse for the whole world.
1 Tim 2
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
234

News Item4/17/13 9:59 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Now then Michael my bro.
John 10:15 KJV
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
It is well worth observing that our Lord never said, "I lay down my life for the sheep and the goats."
I saw the posts by David and Michael last night and was tempeted to quote the same text in reply but decided to not preempt your response.

It's interesting how Michael was able to reply with an entire post yet not say a single word about how the "sheep" can be interpreted as "all mankind" to justify universal atonement. If the sheep are all mankind then when do the goats appear on the scene? When, of their own freewill, they reject the gospel? This would be consistent with the freewill camps' assertion that the elect become elect when they chose God.

In God's purpose of election; was Esau actually Jacob till he gave up his birthright or did God reject him while yet in Rebecca's womb before he had done any evil? Was not Esau actually a type of the goats.... the tares?

And what of the tares? Wheat till they reject the gospel?

And then there is the universalist's favorite verse, 1 John 2:2, to which I ask..... which world? The one Abraham is heir of? Or the one which passes away?

233

News Item4/17/13 9:53 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Michael Hranek wrote:
John UK
Yes, Jesus did indeed say that.
And along with that, Why then did the Holy Spirit moved the Apostle Paul to plead with the Corinthians to not receive the grace of God in vain?
Michael, to be honest I do not think Paul was exhorting unbelievers. Observe:

2 Corinthians 6:1 KJV
1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Who are the "you" he was referring to?

2 Corinthians 6:14 KJV
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

I rather think then, that believers can receive the grace of God in vain, as is evidenced by backslidings, failings, sins, when we could be living victorious and effectual Christ-like lives.

Don't you think, bro?

David Preston wrote:
JohnUK- John 10:15 says nothing about limited atonement...
"lay down my life for the sheep" = "atonement for the sheep".

No limit there, surely?

Yes I believe in dispensations, sure.

But I'm not a dispensationalist.

232

News Item4/17/13 9:40 AM
David Preston | Centreville, VA  Contact via emailFind all comments by David Preston
JohnUK- John 10:15 says nothing about limited atonement nor anything about God dying only for the elect. Isa. 53:3 destroys limited atonement.
Plus everyone here is a dispensationalist. You all believe in a new and Old Testament.
231

News Item4/17/13 8:58 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
Chris, certain theological dispositions or philosophies require certain prophecies/passages to be understood accordingly. example: if they come to Revelation not believing in a literal 1000 years, then the reference to it must be merely symbolic. See how it works? Just keep it in mind when you study, ands always be a Berean.
Quite right, Mike.

It's like when you start off believing that Jesus is a Person, then he can't be a door, a lamb, a piece of bread, a vine, a branch, a rock, a grain of wheat, a light, a lion, a rose of Sharon, a lily of the valley et al.

230

News Item4/17/13 8:46 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Christopher000 wrote:
---
The only problem I have is disregarding a literal 1000yr millennium. Why is this when the Bible is so very specific and describes the events which preceed, and follow this event? These events never happen either if there is no 1000yrs. Satan doesn't get chained and then loosed for a short time after, the new unregenerate do not rise up against God, and everything else. I have heard some say that they don't believe it because they see no need for it but how can we comment on what God has planned for what or why? I guess, for myself, I worry about symbolizing things that seem too far out or unnecessary from a human standpoint.
Chris, certain theological dispositions or philosophies require certain prophecies/passages to be understood accordingly. example: if they come to Revelation not believing in a literal 1000 years, then the reference to it must be merely symbolic. See how it works? Just keep it in mind when you study, ands always be a Berean.
229

News Item4/17/13 8:29 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Christopher000 wrote:
Not only do I not have access to the emoticons, but I don't have access to a 3rd world, UK, Walesspeak, slang dictionary either...wotsit. hmmm.
Yes, I should have said i-wotsit.
228

News Item4/17/13 8:16 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Not only do I not have access to the emoticons, but I don't have access to a 3rd world, UK, Walesspeak, slang dictionary either...wotsit. hmmm.
227

News Item4/17/13 7:41 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Christopher000 wrote:
Thanks John...I had you specifically in mind but didn't want to name names...ha-ha. Boy, people must be sick and tired of my redundant "ha-ha's"
Anyway, I don't know anything for certain but it's interesting to follow any relevant conversations.
Ha-ha! Keep them up Christopher. If you don't have access to the smarticons on your modern wotsit, that's the best you can do.

Regarding the millenium, you will no doubt find plenty of sermons here on SA which promote it as a doctrine, especially from fundamentalists. Why not have a listen and compare notes? I'm open-minded, but thus far I am personally convinced by the testimony of the whole scripture that when Christ returns it is the last day.

226
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