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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  7/26/2014
FRIDAY, AUG 15, 2008  |  152 comments
Chronological Bible sparks debate
Bob Sanford wanted to create a Bible that would bring order and clarity to the text. Instead, he's waded right into one of the great debates of biblical scholarship.

The Chronological Study Bible will be released this fall in the midst of a Bible-publishing boom in the United States. In an industry that now as much to do with profits as with prophets, Sanford expects his new edition to have wide appeal.

"(Our challenge) is to take the scholarship and make it enjoyable to a readership that enjoys history," said Sanford, who oversees the Bible division for the giant Christian publisher, Thomas Nelson. ...


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
www.usatoday.com

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Page 1 | Page 6 ·  Found: 152 user comment(s)
News Item8/26/08 5:05 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
preacherjond wrote:
How about: "EVERY WORD of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him."

You cannot deny the plain teaching of divine preservation in the Scripture in the verses of Psalm 12:6-7. They are as plain as it can get.

Can God preserve His Word? Of course He can -- and does!

Does He preserve the SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL word(s) ... let's say, from the original Hebrew to the English?
Not really.

Let's look at 2 short English translations taken randomly from Scripture. The first few words of Isaiah 10:1 taken from the KJV and the NASB will suffice for our illustration here:

KJV - "Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees"
NASB - "Woe to those who enact evil statutes"

Both use 7 words.
Only 1 word (Woe) is used in both translations.
There is only a 14.3% agreement on the SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL words used between the 2 versions!

So, in which version/translation were the exact, "pure," "inerrant" words of God preserved? The KJV? The NASB? Neither?

But is the WORD of God preserved? Yes! In BOTH cases the communication of God -- the message meant to be conveyed to man -- is crystal clear. And only a word-idolater would quibble about God's
"word(S)" being preserved in the one and NOT in the other!

52

News Item8/26/08 3:36 PM
ENGINEER | USA  Find all comments by ENGINEER
Jim Lincoln wrote:
80 or 90% of the KJV is not good

Thought you were going to concede that we'd be fine using a Ryrie Authorised Bible....? You backpeddling?

Anyhow, as WEBSTER would make far less than 1% difference from the Authorised Bible an incredible amount of what you'd call "not good' would still remain...
seems like you've got a big problem with Webster's, too. (for one thing, Webster tells you that the Lord's name is Jehovah...which you said was not His name, but then recommened a 'bible' that constantly calls the LORD 'Jehovah'
many more times than the Authorised.

anyhow...

I'd still like your estimate of what percentage IS
'good'/reliable in your 'New Age' versions.

I'll ask you the same thing that got DCJ49 to give us his "95% bible" definition:

Jim,
We know you don't think the Authorised Bible is your Final Authority. Fine.
1.
Does your FINAL AUTHORITY exist on earth today in pure, inerrant, tangible form in any language?
2.
If yes, what and where is it? And if no, why not?

51

News Item8/26/08 3:09 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
The 80 or 90% of the KJV is not good, that is for certain, Engineer, The Biblical Position on The KJV Controversy. It should be obvious to anyone, that the KJV need some mechanical repairs!
Noah Webster wrote:
...a version of the scriptures for popular use should consist of words expressing the sense which is most common in popular usage, so that the first ideas suggested to the reader should be the true meaning of such words, according to the original languages. That many words in the present version fail to do this is certain. My principal aim is to remedy this evil.
The inaccuracies in grammar, such as which for who, his for its, shall for will, should for would, and others, are very numerous in the present version.
Who is substituted for which, when it refers to persons.
....
Its is substituted for his, when it refers to plants and things without life.
.....
Why is substituted for wherefore, when inquiry is made; as, “why do the wicked live?” Job 21.7.
....
from, Webster's Revision of the KJV (1833) are you willing to make the grammatical and spelling repairs suggested by Webster? ]
50

News Item8/26/08 2:42 PM
ENGINEER | USA  Find all comments by ENGINEER
Jim Lincoln wrote:
Preface
1.
King James Only As Slander #1
King James Only As Slander #2
2.A common straw man assumes that IF the AV is God's word ,the AV translators were perfect or something. Thus we must also agree with everything they wrote in their Letter to the Reader (preface to the AV). This is simply not true. The Letter to the Reader is not scripture. But when one compares the AV translators' preface to those of modern translators you will find a vastly different attitude. Modern translators view their work as a simple process of translation; the AV translators believed they were translating God's words, and that it was a spiritual matter.The facts of the issue, are the accuracy of the AV work and inaccuracy of the work (and poor choices of manuscripts) of modern translators. AV translators rejected Alexandrian manuscripts. Modern translators,rely almost exclusively on these mss.
Based on a minority of texts!

BTW, You think that "We have probably 95% of the original in our Bible versions"
is about right?
or would you put it at 82%?
or99%?
Got an estimate?

49

News Item8/26/08 2:26 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Christiana, the KJV is just that a version, as the people who put it together would most throughly agree, The Preface to the King James Version And the King James Only Position, they would disagree that it would be the only version of the Bible!
Mike Vlach wrote:
....What is inspired—the autographs or the copies? Inspiration applies specifically to the original autographs of the Bible not to copies and translations. This should not cause concern about whether the Bible one holds is truly the Word of God. As Geisler says, “Even when the accuracy of a reading in the original text cannot be known with 100 percent accuracy, it is possible to be 100 percent certain of the truth preserved in the texts that survive. It is only in minor details that any uncertainty abut the textual rendering exists, and no major doctrine rests on any one minor detail. A good translation will not fail to capture the overall teaching of the original. In this sense, then, a good translation will have doctrinal authority, although actual inspiration is reserved for the autographs” (Geisler and Nix, p. 44).
from, How We Got Our Bible.
48

News Item8/26/08 1:39 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
ENGINEER wrote: "You still don't answer the 2 questions"

And I won't answer until "pure" and "inerrant" are well defined.

ENGINEER wrote: "you've just ELIMINATED the doctrine of providential preservation of the wordS of God."

That's YOUR camp's "doctrine," not mine.
God INDEED preserves His Word, His promises, His messages, His meanings, His communications with His people. However, the SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL wordS actually spoken in and through the prophets -- those who were inspired of God -- are not 100% preserved. And how could they be? Did God speak in English to Moses? Are Hebrew idioms directly translatable into English? Does Greek to English (or Hebrew to English) have a one-to-one word correspondence? No. The INDIVIDUAL wordS are NOT preserved and God never made such a promise to begin with!

But I'll go one step further in saying that within the TOTAL body of the Hebrew and Greek manuscript tradition, the actual words of the ORIGINAL AUTOGRAPHS are to be found. We have probably +95% of the original in our Bible versions. The rest is debatable and IF we knew just what manuscripts to choose from, we could eventually arrive at an original autographs facsimile!

Absolutely NO essential Doctrine is disturbed by the standard versions we have today.

(space)

47

News Item8/26/08 1:37 PM
preacherjond  Find all comments by preacherjond
[QUOTE]But I will say this much now: Psalm 12:7 does NOT refer to the preservation of the SPECIFIC "words" of God. That's the verse KJVO-ers love to camp out on. The word "them" in verse 7 does NOT refer to the individual words of the Bible![/QUOTE]How about: "EVERY WORD of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him."

You cannot deny the plain teaching of divine preservation in the Scripture in the verses of Psalm 12:6-7. They are as plain as it can get.

46

News Item8/26/08 12:10 PM
ENGINEER | USA  Find all comments by ENGINEER
DJC49 wrote:
does NOT refer to the preservation of the specific "words" of God.
You still don't answer the 2 questions

but answer, of course, your earlier
much repeated,challenges for those who
hold to the Authorised Bible to
name one difference in doctrine that is
changed by the new versions.

Well, you've just ELIMINATED the doctrine of providential preservation of the wordS of God.

and, as you know your cite was wrong:
Jesus&Our&Lord" occur 12 times IN both, but
the title Christ is cut twice from corrupt NASB's base CT.

ROM 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 COR. 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus *Christ* our Lord?
1 THES 3:11 Now God himself and our Father,and our Lord Jesus *Christ*, direct our way unto you.
1TIM.1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
HEB 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

showing your METHOD wrong with the text itself-you've to to look for the words regardless of their order.Count, not placement.

45

News Item8/26/08 11:55 AM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
ENGINEER wrote:
(you're wrong-he COULD have had the offer)
Baloney. The man(?)/pseudonymic non-entity/KJV-Onlyist/BOMBTHROWER/25%er is full of "beans."

ENGINEER wrote:
Note that your 'error' claiming
a 12 to 7 difference in words 8/23/08 10:55 AM when proven WRONG ...
Nonsense.
Do this: Go HERE and type in "Jesus Our Lord" Choosing the KJV version, it comes up with 7 occurrence while choosing the NASB version, it comes up with 12.
Q.E.D.

I was attempting to make a point using "reductio ad absurdum." Unfortunately, you didn't pick up on it.

ENGINEER wrote:
We know you don't think the Authorised Bible is your Final Authority. Fine.
1. Does your FINAL AUTHORITY exist on earth today in pure, inerrant, tangible form in any language?
2. If yes, what and where is it? And if no, why not?
Before I ever answer that loaded question that KJVO-ers just LOVE to ask, the terms "pure" and "inerrant" must be well defined.

But I will say this much now: Psalm 12:7 does NOT refer to the preservation of the SPECIFIC "words" of God. That's the verse KJVO-ers love to camp out on. The word "them" in verse 7 does NOT refer to the individual words of the Bible!

44

News Item8/26/08 8:59 AM
ENGINEER | USA  Find all comments by ENGINEER
DJC49 wrote:
*ADC*
isn't the only one not answering questions

8yr-old passes law school exam
3/10/08
10yr-old completes college Vet work
1/31/08
SA stories

(you're wrong-he COULD have had the offer)

In another thread,
my question to you about Final Authority was missed.
And you moved on to what I'd call red herrings, too.


We know you don't think the Authorised Bible is your Final Authority. Fine.
1.
Does your FINAL AUTHORITY exist on earth today in pure, inerrant, tangible form in any language?
2.
If yes, what and where is it? And if no, why not?

By the way, I know ADC is annoying but
you've got a history, too, ofignored errors
8/23/08 2:22 PM
Note that your 'error' claiming
a 12 to 7 difference in words 8/23/08 10:55 AM
when proven WRONG, and EVEN
showing 2 times the title of
Christ is cut from the verses YOU cited. 8/23/08 11:57 AM
But you never acknowledged YOUR error, nor responded to my 2 above.

It IS easy to get off target, but those 2 seem pretty key to me.
got an answer?

43

News Item8/25/08 10:17 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
MurrayA wrote:
Dem Conservative,
Pleeeez! Just answer DJC49's question (or challenge, whichever you prefer). Never mind the irrelevant counter-charges!

Haven't you heard of the tu quoque fallacy?

Answer his question!

MurrayA

It's obvious, isn't it?

*A Democratic Conservative* doesn't want to (or can't) answer the question about the "ten thousand times ten thousand" found in Daniel 7:10

He KNOWS that it can't be taken literally, so what does he resort to?

Quite naturally, a red herring.

Out of nowhere comes his fishy subterfuge about transubstantiation along with his desperate attempt to pin that Roman Catholic belief on to me! Hahaha! I'm as much a RC as Pope Benedict XVI is a taxi-driving Druid.

BTW, did you know that upon graduating high school, Harvard Law School offered *A Democratic Conservative* a fully pre-paid scholarship? Yep! He didn't even have to attend University ... it was straight on to Law School for this young chap! But who could blame Havard Law School for wanting him so badly? Afterall, *A Democratic Conservative* graduated in the TOP 25% of his high school graduating class!
[See his post of 8/25/08 7:41 PM on the "Obama Chooses Biden as Running Mate" thread] This guy's a REAL character!

42

News Item8/25/08 9:42 PM
MurrayA | Australia  Find all comments by MurrayA
Dem Conervative,
Pleeeez! Just answer DJC49's question (or challenge, whichever you prefer). Never mind the irrelevant counter-charges!

Haven't you heard of the tu quoque fallacy?

Answer his question!

41

News Item8/25/08 9:09 PM
A Democratic Conservative  Find all comments by A Democratic Conservative
DJC49 wrote:
So I take it (from your typical psychoneurotic response above) that you do NOT interpret the "ten thousand times ten thousand" of Daniel 7:10 literally?
Hmm?
Help me out here. I'm having difficulty understanding where you stand on the "ten thousand times ten thousand"
And I take it (from your Satanic-Vaticanist "Jesuitical" psychoneurotic response above) that you Do NOT interpret the "Lord's Table/Supper/Passover" LITERALLY ?

Hmmmm.

For one who cannot discern between the Literal & the Heretical; he sure has difficulty in understanding & counting "ten thousand times ten thousand": maybe he should go back to grammar school.

Or is grammar school too far advanced for him ?

40

News Item8/25/08 8:46 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
A Democratic Conservative wrote:
So you're an anti-Biblical-Literalist are you ?

Except only where The "Lord's Table" (The "Last Supper") or The Judeo-Christian "Passover" is mentioned/concerned:

Where you will "TAKE IT LITERALLY":

To Fulfill your Occultic Satanic-Vaticanist Cannibalistic Debauchery & Luciferian Heresy Known as "Transubstantiation" ?

Hmmmm.

Who is REALLY holding to a soul-damning Heresy here ?

So I take it (from your typical psychoneurotic response above) that you do NOT interpret the "ten thousand times ten thousand" of Daniel 7:10 literally?

Hmm?

Help me out here. I'm having difficulty understanding where you stand on the "ten thousand times ten thousand"

39

News Item8/25/08 8:19 PM
A Democratic Conservative  Find all comments by A Democratic Conservative
[Removed by SermonAudio.com]
38

News Item8/25/08 7:50 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
A Democratic Conservative wrote:
As An Historic Authorized Biblical-Literalist, I Believe That LITERAL Books (Actual Ink, Paper & ALL) will be OPENED & READ FROM At The Great White Throne Judgement Seat of The LORD Jesus Christ:

"A fiery stream issued and came forth from before HIM: thousand thousands ministered unto HIM, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before HIM: the JUDGEMENT was set, and The BOOKS Were OPENED." Daniel 7:10

So you're a literalist, are you?

Fine.

Now tell me, *A Democratic Conservative* ... do you believe that there will be ONLY 100 million standing before Him at the JUDGEMENT? That's what a literalist MUST say if he were to believe the "ten thousand times ten thousand" quotation of Daniel 7:10 and take it literally.

N.B.: There's something like 6.7 BILLION people presently living on earth right now! Looks like relatively few of them will be judged ... according to an Historic Authorized Biblical-Literalist such as yourself!

37

News Item8/25/08 7:16 PM
enough already | usa  Find all comments by enough already
The 'books' that will be opened at the great white throne judgment contain the evidence against the guilty sinner, within these books are recorded every thought, word, and deed committed against God and His word. What is written in these books will be the reason the name of the guilty is not found in the book of life. "The dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" Rev. 20:12
36

News Item8/25/08 6:42 PM
A Democratic Conservative  Find all comments by A Democratic Conservative
Preserved wrote:
...But as much as I love the ol KJ, Its paper and ink will not be found in heaven...
Ahem, "preserved": But I and THE BOOK(S) OF ALMIGHTY GOD beg to differ with you on the above FALSE Statement that you commented/posted.

As An Historic Authorized Biblical-Literalist, I Believe That LITERAL Books (Actual Ink, Paper & ALL) will be OPENED & READ FROM At The Great White Throne Judgement Seat of The LORD Jesus Christ:

"A fiery stream issued and came forth from before HIM: thousand thousands ministered unto HIM, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before HIM: the JUDGEMENT was set, and The BOOKS Were OPENED." Daniel 7:10

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before GOD; and The BOOKS Were OPENED: and Another BOOK was OPENED, which is THE BOOK OF LIFE: and the dead were JUDGED out of THOSE THINGS which were WRITTEN in THE BOOKS, according to their works." Revelation 20:12

"THE BOOKS" that "WERE (Will Be) OPENED" are None Other But The 66 BOOKS of THE AUTHORIZED HOLY BIBLE-SCRIPTURES: GOD'S Holy & Eternal WORD that is "FOR EVER...SETTLED IN HEAVEN." Psalm 119:89

I Believe & Spiritually KNOW That FOR EVER SETTLED WORD of GOD is PRESERVED on EARTH in The English Language as The ONE & ONLY AUTHORIZED KING JAMES BIBLE !

35

News Item8/25/08 6:00 PM
Christiana  Find all comments by Christiana
Preserved wrote:
The Bible says God will preserve His word...
Many argue about where and what translation originals ect. No book made with hands will be saved(wood hay and stubble), though God uses these wonderful treasures as a tool of the Holy Spirit in which teaches us all things 1 Jn 2:27, Jn 14:26. The Holy Spirit even uses nature and our conscience(that’s why non will have excuse). God said in Jer he will write his word in our hearts and minds and since we are the reason for the testaments of Jesus Christ commonly called the Bible. Jer 31:33-34 They will be preserved in us. Ps 37:28 I believe and trust the ol KJ(not a version) Bible translation. Why? It’s fruit, It’s testimony, its price in the blood of the saints and their testimony about it. But as much as I love the ol KJ, Its paper and ink will not be found in heaven though its testimony and fruit will be. We can make anything an Idol: our things, our work, our families, our inellect, and yes even our Bibles… Argue all you want I would rather feed on his word and grow thereby…
This is so beautifully stated because it is true. I have read and re-read it. Thank you for posting.
34

News Item8/25/08 2:00 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Preserved, what a good comment, amen. You know getting back to the article, it is not all that uncommon to have chronological bibles! Now my church sales two, one is apparently the King James, >The Reese Chronological Bible and this one is apparently the NIV, Narrated Bible (Chronological), naturally I'm not only plugging my own church's bookstore, but I will reluctantly add, they can be found at other locations also. Actually, many people seem to like them, quite a bit.
33
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