.Analogies between the European Reformation and contemporary Islamism are much closer than many Protestants would like to admit.
Noyes compares Calvin closely to Ibn Abd al-Wahhab, the founder of the Wahhabi movement that so often features, unflatteringly, in our headlines. Al-Wahhab (1703-92) was also a near-exact contemporary of John Wesley (1703-91), a fact that cries out for a comparative dual biography!
Like Calvinism, Wahhabi Islam urged the destruction of everything that could be seen as a later accretion to the core of the religion, as well as all manifestations of paganism or idolatry. Since the 1920s, this version of the faith has been the official creed of Saudi Arabia, and variants of it are found among Islamâ€™s violent and extreme movements....
John UK wrote: Does this not refer to an immediate salvation through justification by faith in Jesus Christ? Thus a person can say, "I am saved, I'm being saved, and I will be saved."?
I can't agree with that, John.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
This verse gives the proper meaning of the state of being saved.... "from wrath". As you can see, at the time Paul penned this letter (the day of the Lord in which the wrath of God was revealed from heaven (Rom 1:18)), he and his fellow believers were justified but not yet saved from the then present wrath of God (Rom 13:12). That would not come until the day of the Lord was over and the "acceptable time, the day of salvation" had come which, btw, came when the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch.
Isa 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages...
During the day of salvation aka an age of grace, salvation from the wrath which abides upon all unbelievers (John 3:36) is immediate upon faith and repentance.
Lurker my old friend, are you saying that the expression "shall be saved" always implies a salvation that is future, that is, "shall be saved on the last day"?
I realise that our complete salvation includes the redemption of the body, which is future, and we shall finally be totally saved from the influence of sin, which is also future, but how do you see the commission?
Mark 16:15-16 KJV (15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Does this not refer to an immediate salvation through justification by faith in Jesus Christ? Thus a person can say, "I am saved, I'm being saved, and I will be saved."?
John for JESUS wrote: Lurker... Acts 15:11 NASB But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." The Jewish men were saying they were saved in the same manner as the Gentiles. Not sure why you would say the Jews weren't saved, but I can only assume it has something to do with your antisemitism or anti-Jewish sentiment.
Act 15:11 KJV
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Get a real bible.
. . .
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Why didn't Paul claim salvation as a present possession for himself and those he wrote to? Because....
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand...
.... the day of the Lord aka the wrath of God, which began when Paul said he died, (Rom 7:9) was still in progress and he awaited for salvation from that present wrath. Yet he was a believer. So was he regenerated or unregenerate? Was his heart circumcised to love God (Deut 30:6) or not?
Unless the progression of events in Paul's writings is perceived, these things will escape most people.
Ladybug, Lurker,& penned, Considering the ad hominem remark that was just posted below and the proverbial straw man that is always brought in to these discussions when they cannot make a biblical stance I am bowing out of this thread.... Have enjoyed the fellowship with you all. To everyone...have a blessed Lords Day!
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
The Jewish men were saying they were saved in the same manner as the Gentiles. Not sure why you would say the Jews weren't saved, but I can only assume it has something to do with your antisemitism or anti-Jewish sentiment.
Michael, to 'stop right there' as you say, is to stop short of understanding the whole counsel. You quote more verses, which is good. If, however, you are insisting that Paul is teaching belief precedes regeneration, then you are not rightly understanding what Paul teaches.
When it comes to salvation, I have a sense of mystery and awe. I think there are clear teachings though such as...
regeneration predestination election man's will and responsibility for his sin man's depravity justification sanctification
I'm sure I'm missing much. To God be the glory, but to say salvation is a choice man makes I think is going too far. There is a point when a sinner's eyes are opened and they understand, but scripture demands the feet of good news, that's us... to me its like looking at the mechanisms of the human eye. Its amazing and complicated and its the hand of God, but the human experience of salvation, I think, is unique to each person.
ladybug wrote: Michael H, You state "It is NOT written FAITH comes by regeneration" and provide Romans 10 as a proof text. That's fine,
Ladybug And you should have stopped right there
Lurker is wrong, and abusing other verses doesn't nullify Romans 10 nor Titus 3 and it certainly doesn't make him right
I will certainly agree with you 'Jeremiah 17:9 describes the human heart, desperately wicked and deceitful' something "one eyed Calvinists" demonstrate over and over again in their false teaching that lost people are totally unable to respond the convicting work of the Holy Spirit and the Word (or the Gospel too)
often accusing non-Calvinists of things we are simply not saying in regards to the complete sovereignty of God in Salvation
Paul is correct, not Lurker nor Calvin as it applies
You state "It is NOT written FAITH comes by regeneration" and provide Romans 10 as a proof text. That's fine, however, there are other verses that must be considered as well; verses such as Ephesians 2:1,5 which state man is dead in sin until quickened by God. The doctrine of regeneration is essential in understanding how you are able to believe. If you are dead in sin, unable to receive the things of the Spirit of God, as Paul states in 1 Cor. 2:14, then something must take place before you can believe. So many churches want to trot the 'Roman Road' out there like that's all there is to salvation, just believe and you are saved. Yes, but HOW are you able to believe? What causes you to believe in Christ and others to continue on the broad road? Jeremiah 17:9 describes the human heart, desperately wicked and deceitful. The definition for those are 'crooked,polluted and incurable, sick, woeful'. This is the condition of every sinner ever born. How does such a heart respond to the Gospel on it's own? Ez. 36:26 tells us how God works in such a heart - "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you art heart of flesh." Lurker is correct
Lurker wrote: There is no warrant to interpret regeneration and salvation as one and the same.
Lurker, that is NOT true.
Titus 3:4-7 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He SAVED us, through the washing of REGENERATION and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Oop! But then seeing salvation and regeneration are interrelated if one is honest in their theology and doctrine they must need rightly apply Romans 10 lest they exalt themselves about God making Him out to be a liar
Rom 10 13 For â€śwhoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be SAVED.â€ť
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not BELIEVED? And how shall they BELIEVE in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
17 So then FAITH comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
John for JESUS wrote: So faith is an act of loving God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength and then Jesus says "you will be saved."
What utter tripe, John!
So if someone asks you, "What must I do to be saved?" you answer, "Believe in Jesus Christ." And if they want to know what believing in Jesus Christ means, you say, "It means to love God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind."
Ahem......salvation by works, without a doubt.
The gospel is all about what CHRIST has done FOR sinners. It is about The Cross, where Jesus paid the sinner's debt, took their sins, provides redemption through his blood. Eternal life is a free gift, not something you gain through loving God.
However, when God takes away the stony heart and gives us a heart of flesh, filling us with the presence of Christ, then indeed we will love God - BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US.
If you meditate on the expression "dead in trespasses and sins", you will arrive at correct doctrine much quicker than if you carry on with your current method.
ladybug wrote: 1) J4J says "The gift of God, salvation by the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit, is given after believing!" Where is your scriptural support for this? None of the verses you cited state what you say.
2) It's amazing that you continue to quote Matthew 19:28, even after you've been shown that 'regeneration' has not one thing to do with the new birth, or faith, or whatever point it is you're trying to make. You keep trotting it out there as though it is relevant to the topic at hand.
1) Just so I understand you correctly, are you asking for scriptural support that the gift of God and the washing of regeneration is given after believing? If so, there is plenty. 2) Regeneration is relevant because of your statement, "You must be regenerated by God before you can believe...". In order to understand whether regeneration occurs prior or after faith, we must look at the two examples given. The first one in Matthew doesn't apply to faith, so it gets crossed out. The other one in Titus 3:5 only says that regeneration comes by the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say whether faith is prior or after regeneration. Therefore, where do you come up with the idea that regeneration comes before faith?
John for JESUS wrote: Our souls are not saved until after believing. It is the outcome of faith
Your problem, J4J, is not understanding the biblical terms you use.
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Here is Peter speaking, saying that he and the rest of the Jews looked forward in hope of salvation which the first of the Gentiles had already received. How could this be? Wasn't Peter and his fellow Jews saved at Pentecost (Acts 2:21)? How is it that the Gentiles, which were not called till long after Pentecost, were presently saved and the Jews were not? And what, exactly, had the Jews not been saved from at the time of Acts 15:11?
There is no warrant to interpret regeneration and salvation as one and the same. Peter and his fellow believing Jews were not saved at the time of Acts 15:11 yet I doubt anyone would call them unregenerate for they were in Christ.
John for JESUS wrote: Regeneration is mentioned twice in the Bible. Matthew 19:28 Titus 3:5
God tells us elsewhere in scripture when the Holy Spirit regenerates someone. Acts 11:17
The gift of God, salvation by the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit, is given after believing!
Prooftexting with no regard for timeline of fulfillment is a great tool to shore up faulty presuppositions.
RE: Matt 19:28... Jesus was speaking about a work of God (the regeneration) at a time future to the time He spoke of it. No order can be determined from this text. However, the same regeneration was spoken of in Deut 30:6 and an order can be perceived there.
RE: Titus 3:5... Obviously the regeneration Jesus spoke of had come to pass by the time Paul wrote this letter. No mention of faith preceding regeneration in the verse.... just an act of God's mercy.
RE: Acts 11:17... speaks of Cornelius and the Italian band who were believers before the regeneration began. "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." (Acts 11:9) and that before Peter preached the gospel to them whereby they were saved.
RE: your conclusion... faulty. See 1 Tim 1:12-17 for God's pattern of regeneration; Paul on Damascus Road. Also, "the refreshing" Acts 3:19-21 & Is 28:19
J4J says "The gift of God, salvation by the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit, is given after believing!" Where is your scriptural support for this? None of the verses you cited state what you say.
Here's a verse for you to ponder, "even when we were dead through our trespasses, quickened us together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved)" Eph. 2:5 " It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" John 6:23 In other words, left in our natural sinful state, we cannot and will not believe the Gospel until the Spirit moves in our hearts. To state otherwise is to deny the power and work of God the Spirit.
It's amazing that you continue to quote Matthew 19:28, even after you've been shown that 'regeneration' has not one thing to do with the new birth, or faith, or whatever point it is you're trying to make. You keep trotting it out there as though it is relevant to the topic at hand.
Lurker, thank you for your encouraging words-blessings to you as well. It's obviously a waste of time to continue debating those who have no understanding of the nature of man and his depravity.
To all who defend the doctrines of grace, may the Lord be praised for imparting His truth to us.
Saving faith is a spiritual act, one who is spiritually dead cannot perform it. The Spirit quickens the soul in order to capacitate it unto a saving faith in Christ. Note carefully the order in 2 Thessalonians 2:13,"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth". "the santification of the Spirit" is His impartation of life, and this precedes our "belief in the truth".
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Titus 3:5 KJV
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
In the first example, faith obviously comes before the regeneration. In the second example, it says it is the Holy Spirit who regenerates us by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Problem for those who believe the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit is done before faith. God tells us elsewhere in scripture when the Holy Spirit regenerates someone.
Acts 11:17 NASB
Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
The gift of God, salvation by the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit, is given after believing!