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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  7/28/2014
FRIDAY, APR 12, 2013  |  345 comments
John 3:16 Conference addresses Calvinism

While stressing that the discussion between Calvinists and non-Calvinists in the Southern Baptist Convention is a family matter, speakers at the 2013 John 3:16 Conference outlined the differences between the two views and what they believe to be the issues hindering unity among Southern Baptists.

Frank Cox, pastor of North Metro Baptist Church in Lawrenceville, Ga., which hosted the conference on March 21-22, told attendees that the event would help them "engage in the conversation going on across the nation and the Southern Baptist Convention."

Jerry Vines, pastor emeritus of First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Fla., opened the conference by saying it was not about anger or fighting anyone over these issues. ...


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Page 1 | Page 5 ·  Found: 345 user comment(s)
News Item4/17/13 4:51 PM
Lawb4Grace | Nevada  Find all comments by Lawb4Grace
John UK wrote:
Christopher, I do not hold to either suggestion regarding John 3:16.
Rather, in context, because Jesus was instructing a major teacher of Israel, Nicodemus, he was very keen to improve his understanding concerning the new covenant, a covenant which would embrace not only the Jewish community, as Nicodemus was teaching, but Gentiles throughout the rest of the world also. Nicodemus was also instructed that any sinner including himself needed a regeneration or new birth, in order to see or enter the kingdom of heaven. It is noticeable that Jesus never instructed him as to how he could become born again, except that it was a work of the Spirit working as he chose to work.
Well said.
I would add that Nicodemus understood very well what Jesus was telling him, and Nicodemus was astounded and perplexed at the thought of tossing everything he had accomplished as the religious ruler out the window and starting over. Paul figured it out and called it "all rubbish" meaning his past religious works.
265

News Item4/17/13 4:36 PM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
Christopher000 wrote:
..I am barely able to hold any type of comprehension..; trying not to go under.
Hey Chris,

Its real simple

The Gospel has to be preached to all creatures and we may encourage all and sundry to come to Jesus assuring them that:

Romans 10:13
.. whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The problem is not in the great commission. The problem starts when we try to explain why some believe and others don't. And also the issue of for whom did Christ die.

1. 'Some' argue that the same grace is given to everyone; that everyone is drawn to Christ. But then the issue is why do some believe and others not. If the difference is not in the grace it must be in the person and as someone pointed out earlier then that grace cannot be sufficient. And yet we are taught that it is GRACE that makes all the difference IF we believe that we saved by GRACE through faith in Jesus Christ!!

2. The same 'some' say Christ died for everyone in the same sense. But as has been pointed out how can the debt of sin be paid for by Christ and a person still perish? Either the debt is paid for and the slate wiped clean or it is not.

This should clarify the issues even if it does not resolve them for you.

264

News Item4/17/13 4:33 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Christopher000 wrote:
John UK Wrote:
...except that it was a work of the Spirit working as he chose to work.
Meaning that God will choose whoever He chooses, so it's not necessary to go into all the world...?
I don't even know if that reply makes sense...I have to read the post again and think about it. I think alot of this is very confusing.
Eventually the choosing, (the preselection and prerejection) gets attributed to God's mysterious ways, unless it is understood the reason for man being held accountable is that he rejects God's way, not that he is oblivious to it.
263

News Item4/17/13 4:14 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
SteveR wrote:
I might consider Catholics as Christian,

The irony? Michael has consistently accused me on this message board of being a RCC evangelist and peddling their doctrines

SteveR
Yes, IMHO you are indeed one who (quote) evangelizes for the RCC, or in other words evangelizes that people ought to accept Roman Catholics as Christian such as you do. I hope you understand one does have to promote Mariolatry, the Mass, Papal Supremecy and Infallibility, etc. etc. to do so, merely deliberately ignore that the RCC does such things and behave as if they are not important and significant as to who is or is not genuinely a Christian.

Repeat
May I ask you a question? Will you answer honestly?

Here is my question:
Do you mind sharing your personal testimony of how you came to be saved?

Lurker
I don't have much space left so I hope this might be helpful to understand where I am coming from (please read Sean Harris' comment for a bit of context) What A Wonderful Prayer its 7 minutes long.

262

News Item4/17/13 4:09 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Christopher000 wrote:
John UK Wrote:
...except that it was a work of the Spirit working as he chose to work.
Meaning that God will choose whoever He chooses, so it's not necessary to go into all the world...?
Christopher, it will get easier as time goes by, but I fully understand the difficulties you are experiencing, as it is quite normal.

Now the new birth comes about, how? Like this:

1 Peter 1:23-25 KJV
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The new birth occurs through hearing or reading the word of God. No doubt you can relate to this, my friend. I know of no cases of new birth which happened without someone preaching, or reading some of the scripture.

Hebrews 4:12 KJV
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword....

We are commanded to preach, to witness, and it is God who saves his people, chosen before he made the world.

261

News Item4/17/13 3:42 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Eph Wrote:
The church is to preach/witness to all.

But God does the electing without any merit in man.

Ok, I that makes sense.

So Nick wasn't told how to be born again because he was of the elect and so it would just happen automatically, or his spirit would just know what to do, how to live, etc? I have always wondered how people were saved before Jesus came onto the scene, before written word was passed around with "instructions", etc.

This is all pretty deep and I am barely able to hold any type of comprehension...like treading water; trying not to go under.

260

News Item4/17/13 3:34 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
John UK Wrote:
...except that it was a work of the Spirit working as he chose to work.

Meaning that God will choose whoever He chooses, so it's not necessary to go into all the world...?

I don't even know if that reply makes sense...I have to read the post again and think about it. I think alot of this is very confusing.

259

News Item4/17/13 3:30 PM
Eph.1  Find all comments by Eph.1
Christopher000 wrote:
Is the latter part of this thread about the definition of "all" for God so loved the world..., and go into all the world and preach...?
Some of you are saying that the "all" refers to every man, woman, and child, everywhere, while others say it refers to the elect? If so, how do we know who God's elect are? With that in mind, wouldn't the "all" really mean all to us, not knowing who's who?
The church is to preach/witness to all.

But God does the electing without any merit in man.

As per...
Eph 1:4 According as *HE HATH CHOSEN* us in him (WHEN) = *before the foundation of the world,* that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having *PREDESTINATED US* unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure OF HIS WILL"

Thus God has "chosen."
God chose - before the foundation of the world.
God - "predestinated."

BTW
"Chosen" in the Greek is;
eklegomai
Middle voice from G1537 and G3004 (in its primary sense); to select: - make choice, choose (out), chosen. (from Strongs)

Which is the same root word as "elect" in Matt 24:22.

258

News Item4/17/13 3:23 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Christopher000 wrote:
Another stupid question because this is hard to follow. Is the latter part of this thread about the definition of "all" for God so loved the world..., and go into all the world and preach...?
Some of you are saying that the "all" refers to every man, woman, and child, everywhere, while others say it refers to the elect? If so, how do we know who God's elect are? With that in mind, wouldn't the "all" really mean all to us, not knowing who's who?
Hope that makes sense but if it has nothing to do with the topic, forget it.
Christopher, I do not hold to either suggestion regarding John 3:16.

Rather, in context, because Jesus was instructing a major teacher of Israel, Nicodemus, he was very keen to improve his understanding concerning the new covenant, a covenant which would embrace not only the Jewish community, as Nicodemus was teaching, but Gentiles throughout the rest of the world also. Nicodemus was also instructed that any sinner including himself needed a regeneration or new birth, in order to see or enter the kingdom of heaven. It is noticeable that Jesus never instructed him as to how he could become born again, except that it was a work of the Spirit working as he chose to work.

257

News Item4/17/13 3:17 PM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
repeat wrote:
You are peddling salvation by works and the removal of God's work and the Holy Spirit.
I might consider Catholics as Christian, but I dont 'peddle' that doctrine as authoritative. Its an error many Christians have accepted.

The irony? Michael has consistently accused me on this message board of being a RCC evangelist and peddling their doctrines

256

News Item4/17/13 3:13 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Another stupid question because this is hard to follow. Is the latter part of this thread about the definition of "all" for God so loved the world..., and go into all the world and preach...?
Some of you are saying that the "all" refers to every man, woman, and child, everywhere, while others say it refers to the elect? If so, how do we know who God's elect are? With that in mind, wouldn't the "all" really mean all to us, not knowing who's who?
Hope that makes sense but if it has nothing to do with the topic, forget it.
255

News Item4/17/13 3:06 PM
repeat  Find all comments by repeat
Michael Hranek wrote:
Tell Him all about how you don't believe in His Sovereign Promises, the Sovereign Convicting work of the Holy Spirit
You are the one who is downgrading "sovereignty" Michael.

Michael wrote.
"Calvinists that they teach against and malign the thought of the world in John 3:16 meaning anything other than their definition the "elect""

Translation::- Michael does not believe in "election."

Michael wrote.
"They way some Calvinist/Reformed tell it if God regenerates you then you will do this or that"

Translation::- Michael believes regeneration doesn't make any difference in the sinner.

In other words Michael what you preach is that being born again changes nothing in the sinner, what you want is the sinner-action self-help salvation Roman Catholic (arminian) style.

Michael goes on to say below quote; "if you trust His word to be the Truth and because of it call upon His name to be saved that He will honor His Promise" - This in opposition to regeneration.

You are peddling salvation by works and the removal of God's work and the Holy Spirit.

254

News Item4/17/13 12:57 PM
Helps | UK  Find all comments by Helps
Mike wrote:
... Methinks Paul would have used a different word than "all" if he wanted it so
1 Corinthians 6

12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Does the 'all" here include sin? Or, do we have to assume that the apostle is speaking of things indifferent?

Acts 1

1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach

Does Luke in his gospel literally tell us everything that we need to know about the Lord? Why the other gospels then, and why do we find portions in the others that Luke does not have?

Acts 2

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved

Does all the people include the priests, the captain of the temple, the Saducees, the rulers, elders and scribes? Read the early portion of chapter 4 to see their reaction.

We could add many more references to demonstrate that all does not necessarily mean everything or everyone!

253

News Item4/17/13 12:57 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
repeat wrote:
1. As i've said before Michael you are still stuck in the arminian free willism of your previous Roman Catholic doctrines.
Broken repeat
As kindly and respectfully as I might do take your concerns to Christ.

Tell Him all about how you don't believe in His Sovereign Promises, the Sovereign Convicting work of the Holy Spirit, the preaching of the Word and all He Almighty God does to save sinners, as if they are in control of their salvation.

AND how somehow modern day Calvinistic types didn't get much of their theology and worldview from Augustine, doctor of the RCC Church and how many of them are in a figure of speach breaking their necks to have common ground NOT with the Baptist type believers but with Roman Catholics.

But, "Hey!" If you are so intelligent you might as well go ahead and tell God how things are and what His plan to save sinners really is in your eyes and how dumb us Baptist types are to believe John 3:16 is the Truth.

252

News Item4/17/13 12:03 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
We all(i.e., all as in all, not some of all or all of some) have our favorite verses of support, don't we? Matt 11:25-27 cannot undermine 1 Tim:4-6. A way to make Tim. say less than it does, is to apply a different understanding of "all" as in Matt. vs the "all" in Tim. Methinks Paul would have used a different word than "all" if he wanted it so
Mike, I quite agree. Proof texts are of no value really, and trading texts to prove points of even less value. There's no future in it. But I certainly believe that each and every text must be understood in light of the whole of scripture. Obviously we cannot accomplish such a thing on a thread.

But I can honestly say that my beliefs are based upon the entire word of God; and contrary to popular arminist opinion, the only way I can change is if God himself shows me I have it wrong. So if I became an arminist, it would prove the doctrines of free and sovereign grace.

251

News Item4/17/13 12:01 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Universal atonement? Jesus said.....

Jhn 18:36 My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

So which world is John speaking of in 1 John 2:2? This.....

Rom 4:13 ¶ For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Or this......

1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1Jo 5:19 [And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Those who make their appeal to John 3:16 to the neglect, actually rejection, of other equally relevant texts do God and His written word an injustice. There is cover to cover harmony in the bible if the truth is what is being sought rather than prooftexts to uphold a pet doctrine.

250

News Item4/17/13 11:51 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
John UK wrote:
The problem you have... David, is that whoever God wills to be saved, also wills that they come to the knowledge of the truth. But we know that is not the case for "all men".
Matthew 11:25-27 KJV

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Knowledge of the truth concerning God depends upon God revealing it, and he can only do that in the regenerate heart. Thus if someone believes, he understands, and if he understands, it is by revelation. "Flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee..."

We all(i.e., all as in all, not some of all or all of some) have our favorite verses of support, don't we? Matt 11:25-27 cannot undermine 1 Tim:4-6. A way to make Tim. say less than it does, is to apply a different understanding of "all" as in Matt. vs the "all" in Tim. Methinks Paul would have used a different word than "all" if he wanted it so
249

News Item4/17/13 11:49 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
David Preston wrote:
All men...
David, I have been trying to think of how best to help you. And I think your main problem is that you see God as saving people differently in history.

Let's see. You believe:
Adam & Eve - salvation by works
Old Covenant - salvation by faith plus works
Abram & David - salvation by faith alone
New Covenant - salvation by faith alone
New Age - salvation by works only

Now if you could work out the human state subsequent to Adam, you would have a whole new world of theology.
Adam & Eve - salvation by works
All men & women subsequently - salvation by grace

The key verse:
In Adam - all die
In Christ - all alive

All in heaven are saved by the Lord Jesus Christ. Simple, really.
____________

US, excellent summary of soundness.

Lurker wrote:
Is there a biblical precedent to preach this kind of message?
After many decades of deliberation, I would say that no there is not a biblical precedent for that. It amazes me, as so many preachers do so, but there is no example in scripture to follow that method.
248

News Item4/17/13 11:23 AM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
David Preston wrote:
JohnUK- John 10:15 says nothing about limited atonement nor anything about God dying only for the elect. Isa. 53:3 destroys limited atonement.
Plus everyone here is a dispensationalist. You all believe in a new and Old Testament.
Unless you believe that everybody no matter what is going to heaven, you believe in a limited atonement. If I say the atonement is only applied to those who put their trust in Christ's finished work of salvation by faith, then I have a limit on the atonement, else we have an ineffectual atonement where Christ paid the price for a man's sin debt but the man still ends up in hell. The blood of Christ is sufficient for the sins of the whole world, if God chose at this point to save the entire human race, then Christ would not have to shed another drop of blood. However it is only efficient to those who are saved by the grace of God. Anyway you look at it, the Bible teaches a limited atonement. Christ loved the church and gave himself for it, the Savior of all men but especially of those who believe
247

News Item4/17/13 11:15 AM
repeat  Find all comments by repeat
Michael Hranek wrote:
1. AND now today I see something different but so similar with certain Calvinists that they teach against and malign the thought of the world in John 3:16 meaning anything other than their definition the "elect", and neither group seems to proclaim this verse to be what it is THE PROMISE of the Sovereign God, that men ought so to believe BECAUSE IT IS TRUE and BECAUSE OF IT to in faith call upon the name of the Lord to be saved from their sins.

2. They way some Calvinist/Reformed tell it if God regenerates you then you will do this or that NOT if you trust His word to be the Truth and because of it call upon His name to be saved that He will honor His Promise (in line with His desire and the work of Christ on Calvary) and save you

1. As i've said before Michael you are still stuck in the arminian free willism of your previous Roman Catholic doctrines. Also you wouldn't know a true Calvinist from a duck.

2. You are putting the cart before the horse. Or to put it another way you are putting the sinner in charge and insulting God and Christ crucified.

The Bible states (and you don't appear to believe it) ..
"1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him....

246
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