Leaders representing the Roman Catholic Church and some American Protestant denominations have signed an agreement in Texas to recognize each other's baptisms.
After about six years of dialogue, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, the Reformed Church in America, Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), the Christian Reformed Church in North America, and the United Church of Christ signed a document recognizing each other's liturgical rites of baptism.
The five denominations signed the "Common Agreement on Mutual Recognition of Baptism," affirming the baptism agreement on Tuesday evening at a prayer service held at St. Mary's Cathedral in Austin....
Okay, I'll start listening to Foxe's Book of Martyrs tomorrow morning on the way home from work. I found some info on the web about Christian churches other than Catholic before the Reformation. I need to study and see if they really were Christian. A lot of what I had to say on the subject is what I've heard from Catholics so the information might not be unbiased.
John of Jesus, I do know that I am not John UK, but it is after midnight there now, so methinks he is resting. @Chris, yes they have different people reading different chapters.
John for JESUS wrote: JOHN UK...Before the Reformation occurred all Christians outside of the eastern orthodox branch went to a Catholic church. After the Reformation, a lot of Christians left the Catholic church and formed new churches. So all those Christians who went to Reformed churches came out of the Catholic church, which was around for some 1500 years.
There is no historical record that backs up that statement except for the one created by the Catholic Church. There has ALWAYS been a group of true born again believers who were NEVER part of the Catholic or Eastern Orthodox church. Again, I would heartily suggest you read or listen (via SermonAudio mp3 files) Foxe's Book of Martyrs
JOHN UK...Before the Reformation occurred all Christians outside of the eastern orthodox branch went to a Catholic church. After the Reformation, a lot of Christians left the Catholic church and formed new churches. So all those Christians who went to Reformed churches came out of the Catholic church, which was around for some 1500 years.
John for JESUS wrote: ... I believe the Catholic Church was the only body of Christ for some 1000 years.
The Catholic Church was never the body of Christ, there is a reason the thousand year period of which you speak is called the dark ages, true believers and genuine followers of Christ have always existed outside of the Catholic church per the words of our Lord, that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church
historically speaking wrote: J4J The question really is "when did the heresies begin in the early church?"
Excellent point!
The works salvationists were among even the NT churches.
Galatians 3:1-7 KJV 1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
John for JESUS wrote: So when do you believe the Catholic Church took over the one true church? Who do you believe founded the Catholic Church? You say it was heretical from the start, but how so?
J4J The question really is "when did the heresies begin in the early church?"
Answer : We can identify the false witness in the Bible, eg 2Peter 2:1 "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you"
Therefore the "early" (post NT times) church would have contained Christians and non-christians. Satan wouldn't miss a chance even in those early days.
So the idolaters of the Roman Catholic brigade would have been forming and initiating their insidious iniquitous theories from the out set - Whatever the "name" of the church was back then.
What God did in the Reformation was highlight the unbiblical errors to the real Christians and removed them from Vatican influence and raised the Biblical Protestant church.
Of course since then the myriad of denominations have emerged and confounded the whole issue. But God still only saves His elect as Eph 1:4/5 explains.
Naturally Calvinists are seen to be the folks who stick to the truth and worship a completely 'Sovereign' God.
John for JESUS wrote: JOHN UK...addressing your second to last post, I was referring to the Catholic Church in present day. I'm assume they are Christian with many false teachings but I wouldn't want to bet my life on it either (that they are Christian). The materials I would point to which demonstrate their beliefs early on are the writtings of the ante nicene fathers. Not all of them because there were false teachers even back then. To address your latest post to me, It would have been more correct to say the church split into two branches then to say denominations. I do understand the difference between the body of Christ and a church denomination. However, I do believe it is okay to say a particular denomination is Christian or not and I believe the Catholic Church was the only body of Christ for some 1000 years.
Jesus did not come to Earth to establish a state church. The Roman(state) Catholic(church) was established in the 4th century, and spent the rest of the next thousand years or so consolidating power and persecuting believers. It thereby demonstrated for all to see for all time that it was never the Church of God wrought in the blood of Jesus.
John for JESUS wrote: JOHN UK... The materials I would point to which demonstrate their beliefs early on are the writtings of the ante nicene fathers.
John, are you saying that you have actually read these writings? Any reason for that? How did you sort out the false teachers from any good ones? Can you quote any of the good ones who were not heretics? I mean, with proofs. Thank you.
As for the body of Christ, it is impossible for any religious organisation to be that. Have you not grasped that yet? The body of Christ is made up of believers worldwide, irrespective of anything. It is an organic union, with Christ as the root of the true vine, and believers as branches which bear fruit because connected.
JOHN UK...addressing your second to last post, I was referring to the Catholic Church in present day. I'm assume they are Christian with many false teachings but I wouldn't want to bet my life on it either (that they are Christian). The materials I would point to which demonstrate their beliefs early on are the writtings of the ante nicene fathers. Not all of them because there were false teachers even back then. To address your latest post to me, It would have been more correct to say the church split into two branches then to say denominations. I do understand the difference between the body of Christ and a church denomination. However, I do believe it is okay to say a particular denomination is Christian or not and I believe the Catholic Church was the only body of Christ for some 1000 years.
John for JESUS wrote: So before the reformation there was only two denominations. That's why Luther couldn't have just gone to some Christian church down the street if he disagreed with the Catholic Church it was the only church.
John, in the scriptures there were NO denominations. That is a manmade effort.
Michael and I have both explained to you that a "church" is a group of Spirit-born people. They need no denomination, no building. The true church met in houses mainly, check out the New Testament. In the period between the 1st and 15th centuries, Christians would meet together in a biblical way. These were those who were heavily persecuted for their faith, by those who wanted power and authority over them.
Nowadays, people tend to go looking for a Methodist Church, a Baptist Church, a Catholic Church, an Orthodox Church. Which shows how far we have come from biblical Christianity. But if you will stand up for scripture, therefore standing up for Jesus, you will be persecuted and regarded as a troublemaker.
If you really were FOR Jesus, you would think biblically and deny the validity of any body which opposes scripture and imposes its own manmade laws and rules.
John for JESUS wrote: MICHAEL HRANEK...So when do you believe the Catholic Church took over the one true church? Who do you believe founded the Catholic Church? You say it was heretical from the start, but how so?
MICHAEL HRANEK...It seems to me, after the death of the apostle John, that there was only one church body which was sheparded by many leaders. That church eventually divided into Eastern Orthodox and Catholic. Those were the only Christian churches. Eventually, because of corruption in the Catholic Church, it split again at the Reformation. So before the reformation there was only two denominations. That's why Luther couldn't have just gone to some Christian church down the street if he disagreed with the Catholic Church it was the only church.
You wrote: "If Catholics are not Christian then there are large parts of the world that have never heard the gospel."
From that wording, I took it that you meant "present-day" Catholics.
How do you now stand with regard to present day Catholics? Do you still regard them as Christians?
How about Catholics from the inception of the false church? Have you found any material where we can observe the beliefs of these? If you search long enough, and do some research, you will find that the RCC from its start was a counterfeit church, a strategy of Satan. This is why it has NEVER had the gospel, and leads sinners down a blind alley. Of course, a counterfeit HAS to be very close to the real thing, which is why it has fooled so many people over the years. You can apply exactly the same principle to false protestant cults and churches - there are plenty of them too which have not the gospel. It is religion without the Spirit.
And to answer your point again:- Catholics are not Christian, and in those areas where Catholicism has taken hold, and where priests persecute genuine believers and evangelists sent by God, it is very hard to communicate the gospel to the people there.
John for JESUS wrote: MICHAEL HRANEK...So when do you believe the Catholic Church took over the one true church? Who do you believe founded the Catholic Church? You say it was heretical from the start, but how so?
John for Jesus It didn't, ther RCC persecuted genuine believers and despite slaughtering them in untold numbers still could not exterminate them
Part of the issue here is we have different definitions as to Church, Rome has made it out to be this enormous institution with clergy who rule over the laity with priests who supposedly minister God's grace to the people through sacraments, etc., whereas in reality it is the family of God made up of people born again of the Spirit of God who individually know God in the new birth (something that does not happen in infant baptism either), people who have access directly to the Father, and the grace of God, through the Son, our True Great High Priest before God.
Heretical from the start? How about the fallacy of RCC supposed apostalic succession, and the priestcraft of the RCC?
John, if you want to know the Truth why don't you do what many xRC priests have done, go to the Scriptures the Word of God and listen to what God says like your life depends upon His Word as it does
MICHAEL HRANEK...So when do you believe the Catholic Church took over the one true church? Who do you believe founded the Catholic Church? You say it was heretical from the start, but how so?
John for JESUS wrote: MICHAEL HRANEK...What I'm wondering, if you can answer, is when do you think the Catholic church began? It seems to me there wasn't any church but the Catholic church for some time in early Christian history. All of the church fathers after the Apostles were Catholic. Am I mistaken?
John for JESUS Yes, you are mistaken.
149
There are a total of 248 user comments displayed | add new comment |
COMMENTS | 
