Baptist statement on Calvinism draws approval, criticism
A group of current and former Southern Baptist leaders has signed a statement affirming what they call the "traditional Southern Baptist" understanding of the doctrine of salvation, with the goal of drawing a distinction with the beliefs of "New Calvinism."
The document further asserts that the "vast majority of Southern Baptists are not Calvinists and that they do not want Calvinism to become the standard view in Southern Baptist life."
"We believe it is time to move beyond Calvinism as a reference point for Baptist soteriology," the statement reads. Soteriology is the study of the doctrine of salvation....
John UK wrote: I have been producing scripture for several posts now, with explanations of such,
You have been blowing smoke, produced unrelated scripture and unrelated arguments, filled up the forum with blather and distraction.
John UK wrote: The Roman Catholics believe the blood of Jesus saves. And so they have their magicians turn ordinary wine into the blood of Jesus literally and then they drink it. Pah!
This is at least a new argument, RC heresies on transubstantiation, (having never produced any Wrath of God scripture to back up your Calvinist heresies.)
I don't present papist error but scripture from Genesis to Revelation that the life is in the blood, sprinkling of blood on the mercy seat, the Exodus blood on the lintel that the angel of death would pass over. Hebrews tells us the blood of bulls and goats can never save, but the perfect Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, offered himself once to take them away.
Heb. 9: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Do Calvinist really believe Jesus suffered at the hands of God while on the cross? That Jesus was somehow punished for every single sin that Calvinist have or will ever commit? Just when I thought it couldn't be any worse of a philosophy. How could Jesus have done that anyway if He didn't stay in Hell?
Mike wrote: ..it is not the existence of anger in question, but to whom or what is it directed. Isaiah 53:10 "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.." By your reckoning this must mean the Father was happy to be angry with his Son. Not so.
The Father was not angry with the Son. Where is Wrath of God here? The plan was made to save mankind from Hell, for God so loved the world. "Pleased God to bruise him" means offer him a perfect sacrifice, not that the Father needed a sponge to absorb his wrath, using his own son. Bruising refers to physical wounding (by man), not a bloodless unlimited firey Wrath of God equal to the total punishments of all mankind's sins paid in advance, (even if limitedly atoned.)
The crucifixion by sinful men and devils was enough, and God did not add his wrath to the mix so there would be enough suffering to equal all individual Calvinist sins to pay for them in advance.
The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin the Bible says, when we confess, and through faith in his BLOOD (not faith in Wrath of God inflicted in advance).
You and others mock Jesus and his sacrifice by your foolish words. The sacrifice was PERFECT, not PENAL. Think about t
Faks wrote: When are you going to produce some scripture..
I have been producing scripture for several posts now, with explanations of such, and you have not responded to any of them, except to flap your wings like an oil-encrusted duck, and talk about Calvinists and their beliefs. I thought you wanted to avoid such!
Now come on and respond to my commentary on scripture. Even better, give your own interpretation of the scriptures quoted. Maybe if you was to do so, we should all see your cultish views more clearly, and could help you out better. I think I can speak for all posters here, that we would like to see you come to acknowledge the truth about the atonement, because if you get that wrong, you cannot be saved.
The Roman Catholics believe the blood of Jesus saves. And so they have their magicians turn ordinary wine into the blood of Jesus literally and then they drink it. Pah!
John UK wrote: To continue Isaiah 53:11 KJV 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Lots here. 1. "the travail of his soul". This refers to the work of Christ in his life, death and resurrection and ascension; and also in his Spirit being given to his disciples..and also in his Spirit's work in "bringing many sons to glory" through regeneration, conviction, and enlightenment, in the course of which his chosen repent.. It was a huge amount of work, especially the suffering of the cross, which is foremost...No, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" and HE SAVES THEM.
Blowing more smoke. When are you going to produce some scripture to prove that Jesus' suffering and death on the cross, or his shed blood, was NOT ENOUGH to pay for all your Totally Depraved, Unconditionally elected, Limitedly atoned, Irresistibly graced, eternally saved Calvinist soul, to pay for all your sins in advance?
Answer: Never, because there aren't any such scriptures, but many saying the opposite. You use trickery and sick logic to promote a Satanically reversed gospel, another Jesus, another Father, a bloodless atonement.
Faks wrote: It is absolutely impossible for there to be wrath without anger. ---
You are missed the point that it is not the existence of anger in question, but to whom or what is it directed.
Isaiah 53:10 "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."
By your reckoning this must mean the Father was happy to be angry with his Son. Not so.
Isaiah 53:11 KJV 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Lots here.
1. "the travail of his soul".
This refers to the work of Christ in his life, death and resurrection and ascension; and also in his Spirit being given to his disciples, by which they preached (and continue to preach) the gospel to the world; and also in his Spirit's work in "bringing many sons to glory" through regeneration, conviction, and enlightenment, in the course of which his chosen repent and believe and are justified through faith. It was a huge amount of work, especially the suffering of the cross, which is foremost.
"He shall see...and be satisfied." He shall have the desired result. All that he set out to do is accomplished. He is perfectly satisfied. All those for whom he travailed are saved, and that eternally. The plan was made, and is brought to fruition.
In this we do not have a Saviour who merely makes salvation possible, if only those sinners will avail themselves. No, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" and HE SAVES THEM. This is assured. If he wanted all the world to be saved, he could never be satisfied with less.
Mike wrote: As long as wrath is defined and used properly. God's wrath is his strong anger against sin. Sin is rebellion against God's authority. Jesus became sin for us so that God's justice would be meted out: 2 Corinthians 5:21 "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Yet in all of this, the Father was not angry with his Son, but with the sin that required his Son's suffering..
It is absolutely impossible for there to be wrath without anger. That is a ludicrous statement. To think that countless millions of Hells would be inflicted on Jesus, as God's wrath, without anger -- you people are delusional to the point of insanity, inventing truth to suit yourselves, inventing new terms for words, even to the point you'd call this furious kind of total wrath of God of God you claim paid your dirty sins in advance, all aimed at Jesus like some kind of a laser beam, and say it was done in a kindly manner without anger.
You guys are going to end up in Hell if you don't wake up, you're going to wonder how you got there. We should be helping people to wake up, not handing out more sleeping pills, or wacky weed, whatever. Time to snap out of denial and face the truth of the Scri
Lurker wrote: I could be mistaken but I think you have the wrong idea of what happened when Jesus ascended on high and led captivity captive. Matthew Henry has a good treatment of the text here at III 2. "As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; see Judges 5:12. Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us...."
Good point, I stand corrected, but didn't the thief on the cross go to Paradise whereas Old Testament believers went to Abraham's Bosom? Do you think Jesus brought them to Paradise also or are they still there?
John for Jesus wrote: Your right about paradise. I should have said Abraham's Bosom where Lazarus went when he died (Luke 15:22). Old Testament believers went there when they died. I believe that's where Jesus led captive a host of captives from when He ascended (Eph 4:8-9)
I could be mistaken but I think you have the wrong idea of what happened when Jesus ascended on high and led captivity captive. Matthew Henry has a good treatment of the text here at III 2.
"As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; see Judges 5:12. Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us...."
Lurker wrote: That sounds strangely similar to what Faks wrote earlier. What is the source for this teaching? It's foreign to me. Paradise is the third heaven where God the Father dwells, the house with many abodes promised by Jesus (John 14:1-4) and where we will dwell when the purchased possession, our mortal bodies, is redeemed and raised to incorruption and immortality at the last trump, the second resurrection..... 2Cr 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. .... so it is highly unlikely it is part of hell.
Your right about paradise. I should have said Abraham's Bosom where Lazarus went when he died (Luke 15:22). Old Testament believers went there when they died. I believe that's where Jesus led captive a host of captives from when He ascended (Eph 4:8-9)
Lurker wrote: .... so it is highly unlikely it is part of hell.
My comment that:
"The best way to study any thread at Sermon Audio is to start with the first comment in a thread time wise then read backwards until you come to the most recent comment in the thread.", would get a real test in this thread, mind you I am not complaining. I wouldn't care if this thread had a total of 5,393 comments and I believe that Lurker wouldn't care either.
John for Jesus wrote: I thought their were two parts of Hell. One where sinners are waiting the Judgement and then Paradise where the believers stayed. Didn't Jesus go to that part of Hell and return to Heaven with those believers on the same day He died?
That sounds strangely similar to what Faks wrote earlier. What is the source for this teaching? It's foreign to me.
Paradise is the third heaven where God the Father dwells, the house with many abodes promised by Jesus (John 14:1-4) and where we will dwell when the purchased possession, our mortal bodies, is redeemed and raised to incorruption and immortality at the last trump, the second resurrection.....
2Cr 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Lurker wrote: Oh dear! Psa 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. Hell: 1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit a) the underworld b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead 1) place of no return 2) without praise of God 3) wicked sent there for punishment 4) righteous not abandoned to it 5) of the place of exile (fig) 6) of extreme degradation in sin Isa 38:18 For the grave (sheol) cannot praise thee, death can [not] celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
I thought their were two parts of Hell. One where sinners are waiting the Judgement and then Paradise where the believers stayed. Didn't Jesus go to that part of Hell and return to Heaven with those believers on the same day He died?
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john uk from wales: "
frank
very good scripture; thanks! it sounds like a true..."
