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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  11/26/2014
FRIDAY, AUG 15, 2008  |  152 comments
Chronological Bible sparks debate
Bob Sanford wanted to create a Bible that would bring order and clarity to the text. Instead, he's waded right into one of the great debates of biblical scholarship.

The Chronological Study Bible will be released this fall in the midst of a Bible-publishing boom in the United States. In an industry that now as much to do with profits as with prophets, Sanford expects his new edition to have wide appeal.

"(Our challenge) is to take the scholarship and make it enjoyable to a readership that enjoys history," said Sanford, who oversees the Bible division for the giant Christian publisher, Thomas Nelson. ...


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
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How Do We Know Bible is True?
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Page 1 | Page 5 ·  Found: 152 user comment(s)
News Item8/28/08 3:55 PM
One is proved better than many  Find all comments by One is proved better than many
' I read several Bible versions...."

Why is the KJV so abhorent to modern evangelicals when it was and still is blessed of God-why attack the ONE excellent English translation that served the English speaking world for the last 4 centuries? For some to say that peolple are unable to understand the KJV language is ridiculous as I had no education at all

One day there will be a kick back as Romanists will use the very same arguments by modern scholars against the one Reformation text!
Check out the Watchtower Society websites who use most of the same arguments against the KJV as modern scholars.

It is pointless making any statements as they are disregarded e.g. I was actually convicted and convinced and brought to cry out for salvation by I Timothy 3: 16 -studying with the JW's yet with my own av bible. To me that is a powerful personal reason why I reject the modern versions which omitt such.

As far as the UK is concerned the last revival would be in Northern Ireland with the Free Presbyterians who use the KJV. Please understand many were saved with very little education-is that in despite of the KJV or because of it?

One so-called 'excellent' modern version-the NIV- is now being abandoned by modern reformers after er... less than 4 decades not centuries...

72

News Item8/28/08 3:38 PM
ENGINEER | USA  Find all comments by ENGINEER
Jim Lincoln wrote:
the Translators
ACTUALLY said-they endeavored to make ONE principle translation- to make
ONE that was...
"better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath been our endeavor, that our mark.”

Authorised Bible Translators Abilities, Their Actions, & Their Attitudes

God gave His word to man in perfect form. If this was important to Him, He must also be concerned about passing that word to later generations in identically perfect form. This concern with preserving His words is seen in the call of Moses in Exodus 4:10-16. Even though Moses thought himself incapable of speaking properly, God gave two reasons for trusting in His power to inspire. First, He had made Moses’ mouth (v.11). Certainly, He could enable it to say His words. Second, God promised, “and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say” (v.12). That is, He will control the mouth of Moses so that the words he speaks are inspired of God.

But even with this promise, Moses questioned his ability to speak.
God uses humble men. Their humble preface contrasted with the Revised's can help us understand the difference.

71

News Item8/28/08 3:29 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
preacherjond wrote:
And this line of thought is exactly why the professing church is in the mess that it's in. They have no final authority, they have not a solid foundation,so you have ignorance of Bible doctrine and apostacy. So which one of your versions are the Word of God? None of them say the same thing and disagree with each other in THOUSANDS OF PLACES [emphasis added].
"Thousands of places"

There aren't NEARLY that many! And where there are variations between a version like the NASB, NKJV, or NIV and the KJV, NO essential Doctrine of Christianity is affected. Why? Because the ENTIRETY of what Scripture has to say about a particular Doctrine must be taken into consideration when a verse SEEMS to militate against it.

You KJVO boys just LOVE to "cry wolf" and "the sky is falling!"

And what I meant when I posted:
"because I read several Bible versions, none of this 'stuff' tends to bother me all that much"
is that by comparing and contrasting several different translations, it is often easier to get a good grasp on what the verse is saying than by only using one translation. Our loyalty should not be to any one English translation, but to the inspired, inerrant Word of God that is communicated BY THE HOLY SPIRIT through the translations.

70

News Item8/28/08 2:50 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
One great thing, Engineer, the Translators expected the KJV to be improved upon as Dr. Wallace pointed out,

Daniel Wallace wrote:
A few observations on this statement are in order. (1) The translators do not equate their work with the inspired word of God; they explicitly deny the perfection of the KJB. (2) They freely admit that even the worst translation of Scripture is still to be regarded as the Word of God. (3) They make a qualitative distinction between the text written in one language and the translation of it into another. Regarding Scripture, they admit that only the original text in Greek and Hebrew was inspired (4) They implicitly approve all later revisions of their own work, because the very nature of Bible translation involves a history of repeated revision and correction.
URL=http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1823>Part II: The Reign of the King James(The Era of Elegance)
69

News Item8/28/08 1:55 PM
ENGINEER | USA  Find all comments by ENGINEER
preacherjond. wrote:
And this line of thought is exactly why the professing church is in the mess that it's in. They have no final authority, they have not a solid foundation,so you have ignorance of Bible doctrine and apostacy. So which one of your versions are the Word of God? None of them say the same thing and disagree with each other in thousands of places.
I'm waiting for the truth in advertising law that mandates a label on the New Age Bible Versions:

"certified probably 95% truth'.
the rest is debatable"

I can hear the ads when they offer them up:

" We have probably +95% of the original in our Bible versions. The rest is debatable ..."

"Warning!
consumption of this book may be hazardous to your spiritual health"

or "the Surgeon General has determined
this book to be expired - past the
preservation date:
we recommend an Inspired Bible"
Inspired versus Expired
"Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."Mat 24:35;
Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33
CF-1 Peter 1:23,25
"This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me." (Psalm 119:50)
"I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou has quickened me." Psalm 119:93

68

News Item8/28/08 1:51 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
What core? Again. The KJV translators completely rejected the idea that the KJV was to be the end-all, be-all Bible. Any English Bible can never be perfect, only the original autographs, in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic were perfect, and of course to really get the Biblical nuances today one has to know those languages. PreacherJond. pastors not knowing the ancient languages is one reason churches are in trouble. As the KJV translators pointed out even if the King's speech is translated, into other languages, no matter how poorly, it is still the King's speech.

It is great that we have such improved translations as the NASB and even NIV to replace the KJV. What others have said, many of the thousands of errors in the KJV still do not effect its theology, and of course even a limited and grammatical corrections would greatly improve the KJV.

Naturally, the ASV went further than that, as one can see in it's preface, ASV Preface

67

News Item8/28/08 1:34 PM
preacherjond.  Find all comments by preacherjond.
DJC49 wrote:
but I pay attention to citations. Additionally, because I read several Bible versions, none of this "stuff" tends to bother me all that much.
And this line of thought is exactly why the professing church is in the mess that it's in. They have no final authority, they have not a solid foundation,so you have ignorance of Bible doctrine and apostacy. So which one of your versions are the Word of God? None of them say the same thing and disagree with each other in thousands of places.
66

News Item8/27/08 9:37 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
Alan H wrote:
Very telling statement DJC49...

That's exactly why we differ!

I agree!
65

News Item8/27/08 9:05 PM
Alan H | Washington State  Protected NameFind all comments by Alan H
DJC49 wrote:
Additionally, because I read several Bible versions, none of this "stuff" tends to bother me all that much.
Very telling statement DJC49...

That's exactly why we differ!

64

News Item8/27/08 7:35 PM
A Democratic Conservative  Find all comments by A Democratic Conservative
As I commented/posted before:

#1.The so-called "counter-charges" that you yourself (murraya) falsely accuse me of making; are in & of themselves a FALSE CHARGE !

#2.I guess it's REALLY you, "murraya", who is the true victim of the "tu quoque fallacy" !

#3.Besides, Am I before The GRAND INQUISITOR GENERAL of this sermonaudio website (as Protestant "GRAND INQUISITOR GENERALS" Have NEVER, Do NOT Presently; Nor EVER WILL Exist In The FUTURE !) that I'm under the command, under pain of TORTURE; MAIMING; or DEATH: to answer "djc49's" Question(s) ?

#4.As I and The Whole TRUE Sola-Escritura Bible-Only "Catholic" & Protestant Judeo-Christian Biblical-Literalist World knows that it's/they're (a) Satanic-Vaticanist, Roman "Catholic" Cultic & "Jesuitic(al)" TRICK QUESTION(S) !

Albeit, If "djc49" will gladly answer my Question(s) FIRST; as a sign of GOOD FAITH: I WILL THEN GLADLY ANSWER HIS QUESTION(S) TOO !

*NOTE: It is evident that "murraya" himself/herself doesn't know what the "tu quoque fallacy is" ! ! !

63

News Item8/27/08 3:07 PM
ENGINEER | USA  Find all comments by ENGINEER
[QUOTE]
Neil
wrote:

both ways
Right, Jim's been overstating: I noted his "80-90% of the KJV's not good' recently that was inflamatory.

BTW.the Bard IS awfully crude, I'll grant.
Jim's 'Which one' is easily answered: the Authorised BIBLE is same at the CORE
w/the first one surround by the Preface, and schedules/ and appendix and printed in Gothic font.. but
in contrast,
Laurence M. Vance shows why
Jim never notes which year NASB he quotes from:
Double Jeopardy:which NASB? showing
95NAS has 7000 fewer words than 77NAS.
The ever changing "literal" NASB

I've re-read the preface:
and listened to Dr. Waite here on SA.
DID KJ TRANSLATORS SAY ALL VERSIONS ARE GOOD?
No,

see
Reply to Dr. Daniel Wallace’s Why I Do Not Think

and in particular--
THE MYTH OF EARLY REVISIONS
FOUR SO-CALLED REVISIONS OF THE 1611 KJV

the Bible of 1611 has not been revised but only corrected..

62

News Item8/27/08 2:11 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
I think Jim meant 1769, yet even this date may not be final. Do we use a 1769 KJV?

But Jim is trying to have it both ways. If the KJV is so unintelligible (which as a KJV user, I think is an overstatement), then how can Ryrie or Scofield improve its accuracy, unless one reads nothing but the margins? However, not every verse is remarked upon, nor are Ryrie's questionable interpretations inspired.

It is Shakespeare, not so much the KJV, that is tough going for modern readers. Given how smutty Shakespeare actually was, this is probably just as well. E.g., the induction part of "The Taming of the Shrew" is definitely not G-rated, once you decode the Elizabethan slang.

61

News Item8/27/08 2:01 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Engineer, inerrancy doesn't reside in the KJV, by the way which one? the 161l version went through 4 major revisions until the 1679 version. Later versions left off, The Preface to the King James Version And the King James Only Position, the Apocrypha, the mariginal notes, it's a gutted version of what it once was.
Daniel Wallace wrote:
'...these translators had no illusions that theirs was the final word on the Word of God. They knew that later discoveries and research would help to clear up the meaning of the original. Unfortunately, this preface is no longer printed in the KJV. Its omission has been one of the major reasons why some religious groups believe that the KJV is the only inspired Bible, that the KJV is perfect in every way. As one scholar quipped, "Some people would prefer a false appearance of certainty to an honest admission of doubt."'
from, Part II: The Reign of the King James(The Era of Elegance), read that and the Mike Vlach in the earlier message below, nothing compiled by man is perfect, the Ryrie KJV study Bible, does make the KJV an accurate tool for study.
60

News Item8/26/08 10:12 PM
MurrayA | Australia  Find all comments by MurrayA
DJC49,
Regarding 1 Tim.3:16
See my comment on this verse on my website:
http://www.adamthwaite.com.au/html/papyri__4.html

Codex A, the principal witness to the Pastoral Epistles and dated C5th, is badly faded in parts, including this passage, but modern photographic techniques have revealed that it does indeed read "God", not "who".

I agree with you: I pay attention to citations, but it is regrettable that it has taken this long to produce new photographs, the last having been done in the late C19th!

One other thing: Jude 25 and "Jesus Christ our Lord": this is included on the basis of an overwhelming number of early mss, which KJV-only-ites choose to ignore, and in particular P72 (late C3rd). But KJV-only-ites seem not to have heard of P72, being caught in a time-warp over Codices Aleph and B.

59

News Item8/26/08 9:09 PM
DJC49 | Florida  Contact via emailFind all comments by DJC49
preacherjond
The identity of "He" found in 1Tm 3:16 [NASB] is pretty much cleared up by the preceding "great is the mystery of GODliness:" It's quite apparent to me, at least, that the hypostatic union is being talked about in this verse, i.e., HE who was revealed in the flesh = God was manifest in the flesh. Personally, I MUCH prefer the KJV here although I see no appreciable violence being done against the Deity of Christ what with the many, many other verses of Scripture testifying to same. Besides that, the NASB I have in my hand cites the "He" found in 1Tm 3:16 with ["Some later mss. read God"]. I don't know about you, but I pay attention to citations. Additionally, because I read several Bible versions, none of this "stuff" tends to bother me all that much.

And I wouldn't fret much over the Greek terminology: "Alpha and Omega" being absent in Rev 1:11 as it's there in Rev 1:8 and in Rev 21:6 and again in Rev 22:13 in the NASB. On top of that, in Rev 1:17 it is mentioned that Jesus proclaims Himself as "I am the first and the last" which is the same thing as "Alpha and Omega."

You KJV-Only boys sure do know how to make mountains out of molehills!

BTW, "Jesus Christ our Lord" is OMITTED from the KJV, but FOUND in the NASB of Jude 1:25!

Should YOU start panicking?

58

News Item8/26/08 9:07 PM
MurrayA | Australia  Find all comments by MurrayA
Dem Conservative,
With respect, do you know what the tu quoque fallacy is?

From the wild rant and bombast in your latest post it would seem not.

So you have some homework to do.

57

News Item8/26/08 7:32 PM
A Democratic Conservative  Find all comments by A Democratic Conservative
murraya wrote:
Dem(ocratic) Conervative, Pleeeez! Just answer DJC49's question (or challenge, whichever you prefer). Never mind the irrelevant counter-charges! Haven't you heard of the tu quoque fallacy? Answer his question!
#1.The so-called "counter-charges" that you yourself (murraya) falsely accuse me of making; are in & of themselves a FALSE CHARGE !

#2.I guess it's REALLY you, "murraya", who is the true victim of the "tu quoque fallacy" !

#3.Besides, Am I before The GRAND INQUISITOR GENERAL of this sermonaudio website (as Protestant "GRAND INQUISITOR GENERALS" Have NEVER, Do NOT Presently; Nor EVER WILL Exist In The FUTURE !) that I'm under the command, under pain of TORTURE; MAIMING; or DEATH: to answer "djc49's" Question(s) ?

#4.As I and The Whole TRUE Sola-Escritura Bible-Only "Catholic" & Protestant Judeo-Christian Biblical-Literalist World knows that it's/they're (a) Satanic-Vaticanist, Roman "Catholic" Cultic & "Jesuitic(al)" TRICK QUESTION(S) !

Albeit, If "djc49" will gladly answer my Question(s) FIRST; as a sign of GOOD FAITH: I WILL THEN GLADLY ANSWER HIS QUESTION(S) TOO !

Mark Fitzpatrick wrote:
Where will this all end? God is faithful...(to) preserve his...word[QUOTE]AMEN, Br. Mark Fitzpatrick ! (KJV)
56

News Item8/26/08 7:09 PM
Daniel Lee Ford | Spring Arbor, Mich.  Find all comments by Daniel Lee Ford
DJC49 wrote:
word(S)etc.
If that's what you think we're saying,
I'd oppose it too! but that's not
my (or Waite's) take on Preservation.
I've been reading Mark & Luke in
French,German,Spanish,English this week: & you're
RIGHT in the way you say it: but as a '
'stick in the mud' Authorised Bible guy,I was summarizing a paper from Presbyterian Standard (Oct/Dec 06) by
Lawrence E Bray on Preservationnow I don't have to copy it!
The main problem I have in what you say is the phrase ["THE" Heb. & Gk.]
as though you have it. BUT
Bible translators & Gk Text editors
deny Preservation- cf. 2 translations as well as the critical Greek Text put out by UBS.
2Chr 31:16 (NASB 95):
"..males from thirty years old "
All ancient mss contain "3 years old" not 30
1Sam 13:1(ESV):
"Saul was ... years old when he began to reign..."
no Heb. text is preserved here!
& try reading ESV out loud in church!
Saul's reignaudio
Moorman, Preserved Bible
DOCTRINES AFFECTED BY MODERN VERSIONS
55

News Item8/26/08 7:01 PM
preacherjond  Find all comments by preacherjond
DCJ49,

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." NASB "And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who(who is the "he" here) was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory." NASB changes 'God was manifest in the flesh' to 'He who was revealed in the flesh.' Also the added 'who' changes the sentence structure and meaning. Jesus came in the flesh and was God manifest in the flesh. This is lost in the NASB and I don't want a Bible that gets it wrong on a very important verse on the deity of Christ.

Revelation 1:11 KJV "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia ..."

NASB "saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: . . ."" NASB leaves out "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last." This is a reference to Christ, and who He is, as the eternal God, the only begotten of the Father, and the firstborn from the dead. Again it"s wrong.

54

News Item8/26/08 5:13 PM
Mark Fitzpatrick | Dublin, Ireland  Protected NameContact via emailFind all comments by Mark Fitzpatrick
Where will this all end?

God is faithful, he will preserve his precious word.

53
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