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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  4/1/2015
FRIDAY, APR 12, 2013  |  345 comments
John 3:16 Conference addresses Calvinism

While stressing that the discussion between Calvinists and non-Calvinists in the Southern Baptist Convention is a family matter, speakers at the 2013 John 3:16 Conference outlined the differences between the two views and what they believe to be the issues hindering unity among Southern Baptists.

Frank Cox, pastor of North Metro Baptist Church in Lawrenceville, Ga., which hosted the conference on March 21-22, told attendees that the event would help them "engage in the conversation going on across the nation and the Southern Baptist Convention."

Jerry Vines, pastor emeritus of First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Fla., opened the conference by saying it was not about anger or fighting anyone over these issues. ...


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Page 1 | Page 4 ·  Found: 345 user comment(s)
News Item4/18/13 5:08 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lawb4Grace wrote:
Right, and somewhere between chapter 3 and chapter 19 the wind blew!!!:-)
It sure looks that way.

David Preston wrote:
John UK- How could Nicodemus be born again if the Holy Ghost was not yet given?
David, are you saying that the Holy Ghost did not bring people to new birth before pentecost? Or that people can "have" the Holy Ghost without being born again?

Here is a text worth pondering, as it shows that John Baptist was filled before even his birth. Did he have any say in it?

Could it be that the sovereign God chose this one to be the forerunner of Jesus Christ without reference to him?

Open question to all: "Was John Baptist born again of the Spirit while in the womb?"

Luke 1:15 KJV
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

285

News Item4/18/13 3:36 AM
CV  Find all comments by CV
Mike
I have, over the years, enjoyed the perspective you bring into these posts.

I believe in mans free will - as in Acts2:23
It's the Armin style, one that trumps God, that I have an issue with.

Armins will trade verse vs verse in a debate. But where they are afraid to go is a clear articulation of their platform - the consequence of their beliefs. They will never admit(even though that's exactly what they believe), that man is sovreign over God. Because no scripture in the bible can be used to support that.

See what I mean?

David Preston wrote:
God - "predestinated."
Here is a better way to look at Eph. 1:4
The key is "in him." Who did God choose? Those who are "in him." He decided before the foundation of the world that whomsoever was "in him" should be holy and without blame and that whomsoever was "in him" would be predestinated to the adoption.
God "chose" those who are "in Him" before the foundation of the world. The "in Him" happens before God PREdestins. How does that happen? Because if so, then Gods predestining is superflous. Why did he bother with something He never did!

These terms in the bible simply obliterate the Armin arguement. That's why they like to steer clear of what they are standing on and instead trade v

284

News Item4/18/13 1:39 AM
MS  Find all comments by MS
Two marks of election:
Sanctification and belief in the truth.
Read 2 Thessalonians 2:13,14.
Armenians detract so much from Gods Word!!when it is so plain that a child can understand it.
283

News Item4/17/13 11:33 PM
David Preston | Centreville, VA  Contact via emailFind all comments by David Preston
Eph. 1 said -"But God does the electing without any merit in man.
As per...
Eph 1:4 According as *HE HATH CHOSEN* us in him (WHEN) = *before the foundation of the world,* that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having *PREDESTINATED US* unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure OF HIS WILL"
Thus God has "chosen."
God chose - before the foundation of the world.
God - "predestinated."

Here is a better way to look at Eph. 1:4

The key is "in him." Who did God choose? Those who are "in him." He decided before the foundation of the world that whomsoever was "in him" should be holy and without blame and that whomsoever was "in him" would be predestinated to the adoption. Eph. 1:4 says nothing about going to Heaven or Hell.

John UK- How could Nicodemus be born again if the Holy Ghost was not yet given?

Observer- 1 Cor. 2:14 says nothing about not being able to receive Jesus Christ. The "things of the Spirit of God" is not Jesus Christ. They are not the same.

Calvinist add sooo much to the word of God it is sad.

282

News Item4/17/13 11:28 PM
Lawb4Grace | Nevada  Find all comments by Lawb4Grace
God's Role In Salvation

The following material summarizes what Scripture teaches about God's role in salvation. Look up each passage to sense the overwhelming nature of God being the "first cause" or initiator of a believer's salvation.

God wills (John 1:12-13; Ephesians 1:5, 1:11)

God draws (John 6:44)

God grants (John 6:65)

God calls (1 Thess 2:12; 2 Thess 2:14; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Peter 2:9)

God appoints (Acts 13:48; 1 Thess 5:9)

God predestines (Romans 8:29; Ephesians 1:5, 1:11)

God prepares (Romans 9:23)

God causes (1 Corinthians 1:30)

God chooses (1 Thess 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13; Ephesians 1:4)

God purposes (Ephesians 1:11)

God delivers and transfers (Colossians 1:13)

God saves (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)

God makes us alive (Ephesians 2:5)

God pours out His Spirit (Titus 3:6)

God brings us forth (James 1:18)

God justifies (Romans 8:30; Titus 3:7)

God sanctifies (1 Thess 5:23)

God glorifies (Romans 8:23)

281

News Item4/17/13 11:12 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Mike wrote:
Who cares what Arminians think? They lug religious baggage around almost as much as the petal pushers do.

Sounds like your recovery is almost complete, bro.

280

News Item4/17/13 11:06 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
CV wrote:
Except when it hits the will of man!
God can do anything - even nothing. These are philosophical arguements that are borne out of debates to win debates. God is sovreign even when He is not being sovreign! These amazing definitions of sovreighnty escapes me.---
I believe that man has a "free will" and God is sovreign. The difference is that I believe that mans will is subject to Gods sovreignty Acts2:23, while Armins believe that Gods sovreignty is subject to mans will.
"whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate", This is a clear decleration of Gods sovreignty. Only a sovreign God can foreknow and prededestine something.

You'd think that something explicitly stated would settle the matter. Armins response is that God predetermined because he saw what would happen. God predetermined but man PRE-predetermined.
Everywhere the bible claims something for God, Armins negate it.
Whatever.

Amazing definitions? Funny, that's a peeve of mine, too.

Of course man's free will is subject to God's sovereignty. He gave it to men, didn't he? It's the deniers of it who say God can't do that cause he's sovereign.

Who cares what Arminians think? They lug religious baggage around almost as much as the petal pushers do.

279

News Item4/17/13 11:03 PM
Lawb4Grace | Nevada  Find all comments by Lawb4Grace
John UK wrote:
Yes indeed. Nicodemus almost certainly was born again either the same night or shortly after. Whatever, he became a most devout follower of the Lord, as is evidenced:
John 19:39-41 KJV
39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
__________
Mike, I don't think pre-rejection is a doctrine according to the biblical doctrines of free and sovereign grace.
Right, and somewhere between chapter 3 and chapter 19 the wind blew!!!:-)
278

News Item4/17/13 10:39 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Michael Hranek wrote:
Lurker
I don't have much space left so I hope this might be helpful to understand where I am coming from (please read Sean Harris' comment for a bit of context) What A Wonderful Prayer its 7 minutes long.
Luke 18:9-14 is a parable about justification. The Pharisee believed his deeds of the law justified him (as Paul did before his calling). The publican (also under the law) pleaded for mercy knowing that he stood guilty before a just and righteous God.

In your message you come away from this parable affirming it warrants the sinner's prayer and attribite its ineffectiveness to preachers with a feel good, watered down gospel.

To me it teaches justification in harmony with Paul's teaching: "by the deeds of the law no flesh shall be justified". There was no appeal to turn from their wicked ways and be saved so I'm unsure how it could be a precedent for altar calls and sinner's prayers.

However, I do perceive an external work of the Holy Spirit pricking the heart of the publican, convincing him to trust God, while leaving the pride filled Pharisee in his condemnation.

I doubt we will agree on this, Michael, but thanks for the link to your commentary.

277

News Item4/17/13 7:57 PM
CV  Find all comments by CV
Mike wrote:
No, your understanding of sovereignty needs setting aside. Sovereignty means God can do as he wills and is answerable to no other. It does not mean he must do some particular thing, nor does it mean he cannot do some other.
Except when it hits the will of man!

God can do anything - even nothing. Round and round it goes. These are philosophical arguements that are borne out of debates to win debates. God is sovreign even when He is not being sovreign! These amazing definitions of sovreighnty escapes me. At some point you have you conclude that Where man chooses, God is not sovreign there.

I believe that man has a "free will" and God is sovreign. The difference is that I believe that mans will is subject to Gods sovreignty Acts2:23, while Armins believe that Gods sovreignty is subject to mans will.

"whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate", This is a clear decleration of Gods sovreignty. Only a sovreign God can foreknow and prededestine something.

You'd think that something explicitly stated would settle the matter. Armins response is that God predetermined because he saw what would happen. God predetermined but man PRE-predetermined.

Everywhere the bible claims something for God, Armins negate it.

276

News Item4/17/13 6:18 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Observer wrote:
John Bro
Good to be back, Did ya miss me?
When I saw that there was no storm, not even in a teacup, I thought I'd stay for some more friendly fellowship.
Besides we still have outstanding business with SteveR who seems to have thrown the towel in. These Presbys just don't know their bibles to be able to answer any of the difficult questions. Ha!
I surely did miss ya! And your Theo Logical points. There is still no sign of SteveR answering either question and, just like before, I think the towel has fallen in the font and gone down the plughole.

I've got to turn in, but I hope you can stick around a while, as these exchanges are quite inspiring and quickening, which of course is what the word of God is supposed to do.
___

jpw - all good points.

275

News Item4/17/13 5:52 PM
jpw  Find all comments by jpw
and if I may add a thought to these great posts.....

Nicodemus encountered in John 3:16 that this Messiah came for more than Israel. He came for the world.

That is that all, even the Jews, are condemned in their sin. And that all that are saved are saved through Christ.

And he asks Nicodemus why he, a master of Israel does not understand these things.

What I personally see in John 3 is God's proclamation that His election is for the world, the plan is for Jew and Gentile! Great study, didn't see these things before.

274

News Item4/17/13 5:41 PM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
Christopher000 wrote:
@Observer...thanks for the earlier post. That helped me to seperate the two views. Just so I'm clear, God's grace IS sufficient, right? Who says God's grace isn't sufficient because that doesn't sound right....
Chris

Yep, couldn't stay away

GRACE is absolutely enough.

But you need to grasp the argument. Free willers feel that accountability is lost if a person does not have free will.

So they argue that God gives the grace but we have to co-operate with it to make it effectual.

Let's grant that line of reasoning for argument's sake. What then makes the difference between the person who co-operates and the person who does not. Does one have a spiritual appetite that the other lacks, is it down to their conditioning, to brain power, superior morality etc?

As I said earlier, if the difference is explained by something IN the person, then the GRACE was clearly insufficient and the person has something to boast of. But if GRACE made the difference, it had nothing to do with the person!

BUT if GRACE made the difference, how can the same grace be given to both the believer and unbeliever? There must be a difference, and if so who is responsible for GRACE? Why? God of course. So much for free will!

Later

273

News Item4/17/13 5:31 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
@Observer...thanks for the earlier post. That helped me to seperate the two views. Just so I'm clear, God's grace IS sufficient, right? Who says God's grace isn't sufficient because that doesn't sound right. Although, there's probably more to the argument.

Hey, I thought you were taking a hiatus after a particular post, yesterday, I think. Just couldn't stay away, huh?

Thanks for the explanation!

272

News Item4/17/13 5:30 PM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
Mike wrote:
Then there is Matthew 11:20-24
Look a little later in both the Matthew and Luke accounts and you will note:

Luke 10:21-22

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Casts a somewhat different light, eh?

John Bro

Good to be back, Did ya miss me?

When I saw that there was no storm, not even in a teacup, from my post yesterday I thought I'd stay for some more friendly fellowship.

Besides we still have outstanding business with SteveR who seems to have thrown the towel in. These Presbys just don't know their bibles to be able to answer any of the difficult questions. Ha!

271

News Item4/17/13 5:23 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Observer wrote:
Does this mean that man can believe, be born again without any divine intervention in one's life?
As Jesus said, with man it is impossible.

Welcome back so soon, bro.

270

News Item4/17/13 5:20 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Thanks John and Mike...I am excited to be able to break through the confusion at some point and be able to piece it all together; whether it be this topic or others.
269

News Item4/17/13 5:17 PM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
'Some' like only to look at one side of truth. The "Hypermen" look only at what God does; the "Free willers" at the human side. BUT the Bible presents both sides.

E.G.

Acts 2;22,23
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

This verse teaches that:

1. He was delivered by the determinate counsel of God

BUT at the same time

2. The men of Israel took the Lord's anointed and by wicked hands crucified and killed him

Did God make them do it? Certainly not, otherwise he would be guilty with them of the evil. Are they responsible for their crime? Certainly they are.

We could add further examples.

Even so with Salvation, God chooses, but man also believes or not, being responsible for his actions.

Does this mean that man can believe, be born again without any divine intervention in one's life?

1 Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

268

News Item4/17/13 5:09 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lawb4Grace wrote:
Well said.
I would add that Nicodemus understood very well what Jesus was telling him, and Nicodemus was astounded and perplexed at the thought of tossing everything he had accomplished as the religious ruler out the window and starting over. Paul figured it out and called it "all rubbish" meaning his past religious works.
Yes indeed. Nicodemus almost certainly was born again either the same night or shortly after. Whatever, he became a most devout follower of the Lord, as is evidenced:

John 19:39-41 KJV
39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
__________

Mike, I don't think pre-rejection is a doctrine according to the biblical doctrines of free and sovereign grace.

267

News Item4/17/13 4:58 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Then there is Matthew 11:20-24

Here we see that with light comes responsibility for the light that is given. These cities that basked in the Lord's light, rejected him. They had the light of his teaching, his miracles, his presence. The very grace of Himself, if you will. Yet they said no to him, "they repented not." So he said woe to them. They reject him, and he rejects them.

Why was he so critical of their rejection of him? Was it because they could not do otherwise? NO. "..they repented not." They will be judged more severely because they had the Lord among them. He presented his very Self, but they denied him. They are judged according to the light they had. It will be more tolerable for Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom at the day of judgment, Jesus said. Why? Because they did not have the same light! Had they, "they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes."

Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum were given grace. Salvation was available. But they chose against it. Thus Jesus is critical because the same grace given to Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom would have had a salvific response. In other words, so too the cities he is criticizing might have had, and that is why his rebuke is harsh.

266
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