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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  10/21/2014
TUESDAY, MAR 5, 2013  |  81 comments  |  1 commentary
Ohio court spars on science teacher's creationist lessons

State Supreme Court justices sparred with lawyers on Wednesday in a heated hour of arguments over the extent to which a now-fired public school science teacher had the right to push his religious beliefs in class.

A lawyer for the school board that dismissed John Freshwater in 2011 said he waved a Bible at his students, handed out religious pamphlets and espoused creationism in his evolution lessons.

Freshwater's attorney, Rita Dunaway, said accounts of Freshwater's class conduct were exaggerated and he was exercising his academic freedom to explore controversial ideas.

She said the board's decision to dismiss Freshwater showed hostility toward religion. ...


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Page 1 | Page 4 ·  Found: 81 user comment(s)
News Item3/6/13 12:06 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Frank wrote:
Pilgrim, I thought your wording on particular salvation was very good and I agree fully with it, although I am not a full TULIP. [18] When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Act 11:18 KJV)
There is nothing inherently good in man that would enable man to choose Christ without being first chosen by God. We have been adopted into His family and a child never chooses his/her parents; it is the other way around. People have a hard time with this doctrine because it seems unfair to the way we think and our sense of justice. When I ask myself, "why me", I can come up with no good answer, and that is the best answer.
Amen brother. These doctrines are always wonderful because true. Man-made doctrines may be palatable but because false they are highly dangerous.

Some reckon the best men are a few petals short of a flower.

21

News Item3/6/13 11:47 AM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
John UK wrote:
The PB believes that God knew man was incapable, and did not want to lose any of those whom he had chosen unto salvation (irrespective of anything within them), and so Christ lived and died specifically, particularly, for them, and in due course, God called such effectually, so wooing them with such great, amazing love and grace, that they all came willingly and joyfully, choosing God above all other gods, even though they could do no other.
I'm sorry I am not better with words.
Pilgrim, I thought your wording on particular salvation was very good and I agree fully with it, although I am not a full TULIP. [18] When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Act 11:18 KJV)

There is nothing inherently good in man that would enable man to choose Christ without being first chosen by God. We have been adopted into His family and a child never chooses his/her parents; it is the other way around. People have a hard time with this doctrine because it seems unfair to the way we think and our sense of justice. When I ask myself, "why me", I can come up with no good answer, and that is the best answer.

20

News Item3/6/13 11:11 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Christopher000 wrote:
Thanks for that explanation, John. So it's basically like this; one camp believes that we make the choice to follow or reject, and the other believes that it's God who does the choosing?
Tell me I have something right for a change... : )
Not quite Christopher.

The FB believes that the method of choosing of sinners for salvation is based upon God's foreknowledge of their favourable response to his message of salvation, after God gave them temporary freedom from their inability. Thus man chose, then God chose because he could see into the future, and of course he knew all this in eternity past.

The PB believes that God knew man was incapable, and did not want to lose any of those whom he had chosen unto salvation (irrespective of anything within them), and so Christ lived and died specifically, particularly, for them, and in due course, God called such effectually, so wooing them with such great, amazing love and grace, that they all came willingly and joyfully, choosing God above all other gods, even though they could do no other.

I'm sorry I am not better with words.

19

News Item3/6/13 9:25 AM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Christopher000 wrote:
Thanks for that explanation, John. So it's basically like this; one camp believes that we make the choice to follow or reject, and the other believes that it's God who does the choosing?
Tell me I have something right for a change... : )
I don't know Chris000. I believe both camps say we make choices. Using John's categories, the PB's say that the reason one chooses God is due to the quickening power of the Spirit in the new birth. His people are made willing in the day of His power, thus it is termed an effectual call. Left to his own, man would always reject God, so God must intervene if ones eyes are to be opened to the truth of gospel. The Bible teaches that God grants repentance (II Timothy 2:25) and faith (Hebrews 12:1). I don't believe, though, you would say a person is dragged into salvation fighting against it. You have lots of things right by the way. Appreciate you.
18

News Item3/6/13 8:49 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Thanks for that explanation, John. So it's basically like this; one camp believes that we make the choice to follow or reject, and the other believes that it's God who does the choosing?
Tell me I have something right for a change... : )
17

News Item3/6/13 8:22 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Christopher000 wrote:
"Either that, or the sovereign God has given up on some, and they are all reprobate without being given the word of God."
This is basically what I was talking about so maybe I worded my thoughts wrong.
Well Christopher, all Christians are agreed that the sinner in his natural estate (the natural man) is totally incapable of any sort of response to the gospel. He cannot understand it, he cannot believe it, he cannot repent of sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Fundamentalist Baptist brethren believe that whenever the gospel is preached, the hearers are relieved of this incapacity, and are now capable (by God's grace) of a choice - to reject or accept Christ as their own and personal Saviour.

The Particular Baptists (Reformed) believe that whenever the gospel is preached, the Lord sometimes effectually calls a sinner to himself, granting to that sinner only (by God's grace) the understanding of the gospel, and not only understanding, but a new desire, a desire to serve the living God, to repent and to believe on Christ.

Now if you look at your words, Christopher, where you say God views the future and bases his actions on what he sees - that is the FB belief.

16

News Item3/6/13 7:32 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
"Either that, or the sovereign God has given up on some, and they are all reprobate without being given the word of God."

This is basically what I was talking about so maybe I worded my thoughts wrong.

15

News Item3/6/13 7:29 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Oh boy, I'm getting a headache...ha-ha. I'll read the comments over again.
14

News Item3/6/13 7:21 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Christopher000 wrote:
Yeah, I guess that was a bit off topic and a big question as well. I need to ask some of these questions but I try to choose a thread where I can segway.
Thanks for the thoughts, Frank and John/UK. I know that God is fair and I never question that, no matter what. I guess I would settle on this: If they will listen, God will find a way to reach them. If He knows, in His fore knowledge, that they would reject Him anyway, then He will leave them be. Hopefully I have that right.
Nope.
13

News Item3/6/13 7:01 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Yeah, I guess that was a bit off topic and a big question as well. I need to ask some of these questions but I try to choose a thread where I can segway.
Thanks for the thoughts, Frank and John/UK. I know that God is fair and I never question that, no matter what. I guess I would settle on this: If they will listen, God will find a way to reach them. If He knows, in His fore knowledge, that they would reject Him anyway, then He will leave them be. Hopefully I have that right.
12

News Item3/5/13 6:57 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Christopher000 wrote:
Anyway, Say a jungle tribe, out in the middle of nowhere, believe in a creator god. They believe this because, as the scripture unbeknownst to them states, nature screams God and creation. However, this is all they know. They have never heard of Jesus, and know nothing of the contents of the Bible, but to their credit, believe in a god who created all things.
Here is the rub: They also believe in and worship other gods, and they are cannibals.
Well, this somewhat off topic, but fair enough. I have an unusual way of looking at this issue and my thoughts are unorthodox and would be difficult to explain fully on this forum. But I will say the more uncontroversial part of my thoughts; the elect of God will hear and will receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior. They will not be saved because they are honest or sincere pagans. Billy Graham and many others teach they will be saved because they are sincerely worshipping something and if that is all that has been revealed to them, then God honors that. So much for the cross of Christ. Mother Theresa told them to simply serve whatever god they wanted and that would be okay. A healthy way of looking at this is let God do His choosing and I will do my witnessing.
11

News Item3/5/13 6:46 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Brandt wrote:
Here in TN, they have taken steps though new legislation to allow creationism back into the classroom. This law turns the clock back nearly 100 years here in the seemingly unprogressive South and is simply embarrassing. There is no argument against the Theory of Evolution other than that of religious doctrine. The Monkey Law only opens the door for fanatic Christianity to creep its way back into our classrooms.
---
If the theory of evolution is a theory, of course it can be argued against. Why should the flat-earthers of evolution have a monopoly on the subject of origins?
10

News Item3/5/13 6:33 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Brandt wrote:
Here in TN, they have taken steps though new legislation to allow creationism back into the classroom....
When I was in school, many moons ago, a scientific FACT was an observable truth that could be reproduced many times so as to prove it was not a fluke. Brandt, you and no other "scientist" can show in anyway evolution to be a demonstrable scientific fact. The missing link is still missing. Evolution is nothing more than a leap of faith. We admit, "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible." (Hebrews 11:3 NKJV)Although I am not necessarily for public school teachers teaching creationism, evolution is nothing more than a pack of lies designed to say that man has no Creator to which he has to answer. May God open your eyes to this truth.
9

News Item3/5/13 6:31 PM
jpw  Find all comments by jpw
a short study on scientific history is a good reminder of how little the "established" consensus really knows. "spontaneous generation" -- the idea that mold on bread, for instance, was just the right ingredients (in other words, they didn't know mold was an organism that comes from the air and multplies). one can easily see that with this kind of atmosphere Darwin could come in and say that life just magically appears from nothing.

Pasteur saw the microorganisms in the beer, but instead of showing the world that non-alchoholic fermented foods have life in them, he instead killed off the microorganisms for mass food production....

those who had denied the biological nature of life around us moved into chemical industries, and so what we see today.

the industrial revolution grinded its gears through darwin (we must have an ammoral philosophy for such things) and continues on today with Sanger's children who now bring gm foods to Africa.

the discovery of dna should have weakened darwinism, because of its obvious proof of a divine writer of life... but the patent industry took over.

so today, we still consider life much of an accident to be tooled around with, and societal engineering, oh so profitable, the best the collective mind of man can bring.

8

News Item3/5/13 5:54 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Thanks for the link, Brandt. I'll be checking it out later.
7

News Item3/5/13 5:44 PM
Brandt | United States  Contact via emailFind all comments by Brandt
Here in TN, they have taken steps though new legislation to allow creationism back into the classroom. This law turns the clock back nearly 100 years here in the seemingly unprogressive South and is simply embarrassing. There is no argument against the Theory of Evolution other than that of religious doctrine. The Monkey Law only opens the door for fanatic Christianity to creep its way back into our classrooms. You can see my visual response as a Tennessean to this absurd law on my artist’s blog at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2012/04/pulpit-in-classroom-biblical-agenda-in.html with some evolutionary art and a little bit of simple logic.
6

News Item3/5/13 5:39 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Christopher000 wrote:
Frank, I've read this verse and it is the reason that I always use the phrase "willfully ignorant", unless I've read that specifically elsewhere.
Anyway, I do have an ongoing problem with this statement:
Say a jungle tribe, out in the middle of nowhere, believe in a creator god. They believe this because, as the scripture unbeknownst to them states, nature screams God and creation. However, this is all they know. They have never heard of Jesus, and know nothing of the contents of the Bible, but to their credit, believe in a god who created all things.
Here is the rub: They also believe in and worship other gods, and they are cannibals.
What do you think of their eternal fate? How do you think a situation such as this is reconciled?
Those who eat other people have to go against their God-given conscience to do so, seeing as Jesus Christ is the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

If there is anyone, anywhere in this world, who has not heard the gospel by now, shame on us for being so slothful and unconcerned. Either that, or the sovereign God has given up on some, and they are all reprobate without being given the word of God.

5

News Item3/5/13 4:16 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
I invite anyone to comment on this topic, by the way. Thanks.
4

News Item3/5/13 3:47 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Frank, I've read this verse and it is the reason that I always use the phrase "willfully ignorant", unless I've read that specifically elsewhere.
Anyway, I do have an ongoing problem with this statement:
Say a jungle tribe, out in the middle of nowhere, believe in a creator god. They believe this because, as the scripture unbeknownst to them states, nature screams God and creation. However, this is all they know. They have never heard of Jesus, and know nothing of the contents of the Bible, but to their credit, believe in a god who created all things.
Here is the rub: They also believe in and worship other gods, and they are cannibals.
What do you think of their eternal fate? How do you think a situation such as this is reconciled?
3

News Item3/5/13 11:56 AM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Christopher000 wrote:
Evolution is the religion of athiests. Evolution, a theoretical religion that has been proven to be false time and again, yet the erroneous "facts" remain within todays textbooks...unedited. The story of creation, the Biblical account, along with the Bibles historical, archeological, geographical, and prophetical accuracy make perfect sense.
Christians: We were created by a being that transends time and space.
Athiests: At first there was nothing, and then it exploded.
I'll choose not to be willfully ignorant and continue with the only explanation which makes perfect sense.
Good comment. The below says it all; no man has any excuse for believing evolution, including theistic evolution. All they have to do is simply look around them.

[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. [20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Rom 1:18-20 KJV)

2
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