.Analogies between the European Reformation and contemporary Islamism are much closer than many Protestants would like to admit.
Noyes compares Calvin closely to Ibn Abd al-Wahhab, the founder of the Wahhabi movement that so often features, unflatteringly, in our headlines. Al-Wahhab (1703-92) was also a near-exact contemporary of John Wesley (1703-91), a fact that cries out for a comparative dual biography!
Like Calvinism, Wahhabi Islam urged the destruction of everything that could be seen as a later accretion to the core of the religion, as well as all manifestations of paganism or idolatry. Since the 1920s, this version of the faith has been the official creed of Saudi Arabia, and variants of it are found among Islamâ€™s violent and extreme movements....
John UK wrote: Also, 1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV (18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. Faith in Christ Jesus crucified and we ARE saved. It is a present possession. I don't know where Lurker is going with this.
John UK I don't either, but I can speak to where those you might call hyper-Calvinists have gone with it, things are of course way beyond the (modified) Calvinism of Spurgeon and Whitefield
They separate regeneration and salvation in order to wrongly put regeneration (the new birth) before and completely independant of repentance and faith, to give preeminence to election/predestination
This allows them to avoid, excuse themselves from the Great Commission
like the attitude express to William Carey: When John Ryland Sr. called William Carey â€śa miserable enthusiastâ€ť and told him, to sit down that God â€śwould save the heathen without your help or mine,â€ť he reflected the hyper-Calvinism of John Gill, who set forth his position in numerous works and prided himself on never extending an invitation for a sinner to trust Christ during his entire London pastorate of more than 50 years.
John for JESUS wrote: I don't accuse people of stuff usually and was only trying to get to the core of his view that Jewish believers are not being saved yet.
JforJ, Jewish people who do not accept Christ are not saved.... and Peter said to the Jews that were his peers at the time, Jesus whom you crucified. So why would a Christian be jealous? This leads the Christian to concern, because the Christian has been given the obligation of the gospel. You must understand this mindset, it is at the very heart of an evangelist -- even that towards Lurker, who you are willing to call names without any warrant, now you say "just to see" if he might have negative feelings. What is glaringly obvious, is that you are more concerned with silencing believers than you are in coming up with ideas as to how to bring the message of salvation to a people lost in sin (like all peoples).
Its the age old problem of sin. If you raise a people up above their sin, you are creating an idol, evidenced by a loss of love for the brethren.
I know you will not listen to the link regarding "are you a jew", but it is a good teaching and has many new testament references. This subject is not as muddy as many make it out to be.
Lurker wrote: Throughout the day I've offered plenty of scripture and exposition which clearly demonstrates that regeneration and salvation are not one in the same and you have nothing to say in rebuttal.
Lurker, Again that is NOT true. I had already posted
Titus 3:4-7 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He SAVED us, through the washing of REGENERATION and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Oop! But then seeing salvation and regeneration are interrelated if one is honest in their theology and doctrine they must need rightly apply Romans 10 lest...
Rom 10 13 For â€śwhoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be SAVED.â€ť 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not BELIEVED? And how shall they BELIEVE in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
If God's word isn't good enough for you nothing will be
Lurker... 1) I'm not calling you a liar. You may sincerely believe that you don't hate the Jews. I just don't believe it. 2) Haha, you ask when have you ever asserted replacement theology and then precede to assert it! Some believers were neither Jews or Greek, such as Abel, Noah, and Job. Some were Israelite and some Gentiles. 3) Sure it does. God took Israel out of Egypt, kept the oath which He made with their forefathers. You weren't taken out of Egypt and your forefathers aren't Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 4) What I mean is, when God calls down curses on Israel you believe "Israel" is the nation and Jewish people. When God talks of blessing Israel and saving her, you all of a sudden claim that is about believers, lol.
I'm disappointed and surprised by a specific comment to Lurker. Whether in disagreement, or frustration, I feel that comments like that should be reserved for resident wolves, the lost trying to divide, or anyone else making a conscious effort to cause dissention and infect others with their hatred. Not people who are obvious brothers and sisters. People will always disagree. People will always have differing points of view. Some of the answers that we seek and that each camp claims to know will just have to wait until all is revealed. Some will be right, some will be wrong, and all will be surprised at some things that maybe nobody had right.
John for JESUS wrote: I'm doing perfectly in Christ. In my flesh I struggle. The only mark to pass for salvation is faith. I think your problem is that you think faith obviously merits salvation, therefore it has to be God who gives us faith. Otherwise, people would merit their own salvation, in your mind. Is that how you see it? Otherwise, why suggest if someone believes faith precedes regeneration that they think they earned their salvation by works? Scripture says faith is not a work and if faith were imputed by God, then faith is still something people must perform and therefore would still merit their salvation with God's assistance, in your view. I mean, if faith comes from God or not, it is still people who must believe. Therefore you should believe anyone who has faith has merited their salvation regardless of the source.
Sounds to me like you're talking to someone else. I regard the new birth as the whole package, not putting it anywhere in particular. But I certainly don't reckon on (as Mike NY calls them) born again unbelievers.
Secondly, justification comes through faith, this is obviously biblical. God will only justify them that believe.
Thirdly, quickening is essential, for natural man is dead.
J4J, You insist 'God's word proves the case for faith before regeneration', and yet, you provide NO proof. The Bible commands sinners to repent and believe in the Gospel, however, that does NOT prove faith precedes regeneration. No one here is speaking of accountability; we are speaking of inability. The Bible actually teaches the opposite of what you claim; as has already been shown here. You simply choose to ignore the clear teachings of the whole counsel of God and cherry pick verses here and there to justify your view. If you were to admit that God must first do a work in your heart, then you would have to admit you had no part in being saved. You rob the Spirit of God of His rightful regenerating work that He must do in order for God's elect to believe by insisting sinners have the ability to believe on the Lord before they are regenerated. What would be the point of God regenerating you if you already believe? You would have no need of a new heart if the heart you possess is capable of believing on your own.Remember this, 'heart' is defined as inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding'. 'The natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God'- how is it you claim you can believe spiritual things in an unregenerate state, and God says otherwise?
Last post concerning this tired thread. Do yourself a favour and listen to Don Fortner 'Are You A Jew'. Preached last Lords Day, here on sermon audio. Hope the Lord will give you ears to understand.....
MS... First of all, God's word proves the case for faith before regeneration It shows we are accountable to believe in Christ. I don't accuse people of stuff usually and was only trying to get to the core of his view that Jewish believers are not being saved yet. Talk about strange fire! Also, have you not heard him yourself say that he doesn't acknowledge Israel as God's chosen nation and the Jews as God's chosen people? Hopefully he at leadt supports their right to protect themselves against Palistinians and understands them as a sovereign nation, planted by God.
John for JESUS wrote: 1)I called you a liar? I believe where there is smoke, there is fire. 2) Yes, but not as you think with the Jews replaced forever. All Israel will one day call on Jesus and therefore be saved. 3) Why when you just did? lol. Deut. 7:7. 4) Funny how the curses are about the nation and the blessings about Christians!
1) You don't believe me when I say I don't hate the Jews or deny their right to defend themselves. In fact I admire their restraint and measured responses in the face of what they are presently dealing with. How else should I interpret your replies? 2) When did I ever assert replacement theology? Believers are and always have been Jews and the Israel of God and, indeed, all believers will be saved whether Jew or Gentile. 3) Ha! It doesn't say what was asserted. "But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers..." Far cry from the hogwash assertion. 4) Eh?
It's been fun, J4J, but I'm checking out. Nighty night.
J4j...I have been on this site for a few years. One thing I know for sure, that false accusations and character assassinations abound. As I posted earlier when some cannot make their case, they trot out the straw man. This is what I have observed with you in your many posts over the years. You have a 'strange fire' theology. Anyway you did not prove your accusation concerning Lurker...so you are a false accuser and to avoided.
Lurker wrote: 1) Falsely accused, J4J. So now your calling me a liar as well? Your first proof of anti-Semitism: Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 2) Did it not happen exactly as both God and Jesus warned? 3)Your second proof of anti-Semitism: Provide a biblical text which bears out what was asserted which I called hogwash. Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 4) (That's Israel J4J, not just Jews) You're in a hole, J4J. The first thing you should do is stop digging
1)I called you a liar? I believe where there is smoke, there is fire. 2) Yes, but not as you think with the Jews replaced forever. All Israel will one day call on Jesus and therefore be saved. 3) Why when you just did? lol. Deut. 7:7. 4) Funny how the curses are about the nation and the blessings about Christians!
Peter says this in his plea to the Jews of that time, his peers, "Jesus whom you crucified..." -- this is very clear.
So the Jews of that time were guilty because of their false religion.
we also know that Jesus died for us while we were still his enemies. Which means to me that all sons of Adam are inherently enemies of God because of sin, and therefore we are also guilty of his death, being his enemies, and his death being our reconciliation.
and anyone who plainly reads that and understands that some Jews followed a false religion that crucified Christ and some followed the true religion of Christ their Messiah, that this is something diabolical? or is the truth just inconvenient and so you will attribute hate to those you do not even know?
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole."
We have bad fruit and good fruit coming out of Jerusalem. We had the Pharasees and their abuse of the law and we have Jesus Christ and His first followers who were Jews. Race isn't the issue even if you demand that it is. The Christian has nothing to be jealous of!
John for JESUS wrote: He has since posted that he was accused of it before. Do you suppose that is for a reason?
Falsely accused, J4J. So now your calling me a liar as well?
Your first proof of anti-Semitism: Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Deu 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Did it not happen exactly as both God and Jesus warned?
Your second proof of anti-Semitism: Provide a biblical text which bears out what was asserted which I called hogwash.
Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. (That's Israel J4J, not just Jews)
You're in a hole, J4J. The first thing you should do is stop digging
MS wrote: Prove by Lurkers comments that he is antisemetic Ball is in your court!
He has since posted that he was accused of it before. Do you suppose that is for a reason? Not to many of us have been accused of that once, much less multiple times. I'm recalling some conversations we had a couple years ago. I can't dig those up. Sorry. Stay here long enough and I'm sure you will hear for yourself. Just looking quickly, I saw this:
"Ask yourself, by what means did God write His laws, as you understand them, on the hearts of His people after He took salvation and the kingdom of God away from the Jews and gave them to Paul and the Gentiles?"
Now that is what Lurker has said. What motivates a person to believe in replacement theology? I believe it stems from hate of the Jews for killing Jesus (in their mind) and/or a jealousy of God's chosen people.
Also, this response:
"Another senseless comment: "The Jews are Gods chosen people in the sense thst God chose them as a people to demonstrate to all mankind his love,faithfullness and goodness." Hogwash!"
Senseless hogwash?! Maybe to someone with anti-Jewish sentiment!
Michael Hranek wrote: Oh Dear Poor Pitiful Lurker You worked hard to loose my respect for your scholarship, but you did, even going so far as to malign those who take the Bible literally So politely "no"
If I understand you correctly, you want the freedom of accusing me of not being truthful... "Lurker, that is NOT true."; being dishonest in theology "if one is honest in their theology and doctrine"; making God out to be a liar "exalt themselves about God making Him out to be a liar" with no accountability to make good on your accusations.
Throughout the day I've offered plenty of scripture and exposition which clearly demonstrates that regeneration and salvation are not one in the same and you have nothing to say in rebuttal. As much as it may gall you, you might want to consider the possibility that I was right all along.