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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  7/13/2014
MONDAY, AUG 26, 2013  |  126 comments
Feds drop demand for baptism permits

The waters became troubled when members of Gladden Baptist Church in Salem, Mo., were unable to access a section of Sinking Creek where they had been baptizing converts for nearly 50 years. In that time, members of the congregation would accompany the pastor and baptismal candidates to the water’s edge to participate in the service. The elderly and mobility-impaired were taken to the sandbar site in vans.

This all changed when the Park Service placed large boulders blocking the sandbar to vehicle traffic, including wheelchairs.

Faye Walmsley, ONSR’s public-information officer, told the Salem Times a special-use permit has been a requirement for all First Amendment activities – public demonstrations, press events, religious services – for the past 25 years, but “we have just never actively used the authority until 2006.” ...


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Page 1 | Page 3 ·  Found: 126 user comment(s)
News Item8/30/13 2:38 PM
Christian Practice  Find all comments by Christian Practice
It is ordained of God in Scripture that Babies/infants, of Covenanted (Christian) parents, are to be baptised into church membership.

"The main, argument for admitting the children of believers to a place in the visible church. It was done by divine appointment in the original organization of the church in the family of Abraham. The constitution of the church in this respect has never been changed. The privilege of children has not been withdrawn, nor the duty of parents revoked. The seed of the righteous, therefore, are still entitled to a place in the visible kingdom. The only escape from this argument is by denying the identity of the church under both dispensations. But this, as we have shown, cannot be maintained. The church of God is one -- one family of children -- one brotherhood of believers, in every age and country, whatever external modifications may have been made. Unless the children of pious parents have been debarred, therefore, they are yet within the household." (C.Hodge)

86

News Item8/30/13 2:19 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
John for JESUS wrote:
I forgot to mention earlier in v2 that the word translated baptisms is the word washings in Hebrew. The washings referred to are the ceremonial washings in the Mosaic Law. The vessels used in temple worship and the priest. Also, did you read the posting on 8/29 at 11:19? Just wondering because you usually respond back.
How are the Hebrews supposed to leave the principles of the doctrine of Christ? By not laying down again this list of Jewish doctrine. You worded pretty accurately how Christianity offers a deeper understanding and relationship with God then Judiasm does, though you didn't mean to. The foundational teachings of Christ were laid in Judiasm.
John, Hebrews was written in greek, the word for "baptisms" is "baptismos". That is referring to Christian baptisms not OT ceremonial washings.

If you read verses 1 & 2 and think in terms of new covenant, you will find it makes sense. Why would Paul be "laying down a foundation" of old covenant teachings?

Hebrews 6:1 KJV
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on...

If that isn't Christian doctrine.......

You'll find the terms of Christian salvation in vv1-2.

85

News Item8/30/13 1:43 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
John UK wrote:
Hebrews 6:1 KJV
1 leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
It is the words "not laying again the foundation...."
He is talking about "building" on a foundation, not forever going over the basics which were the foundational doctrines. A house is built on a foundation which, once it is laid, you don't look at it every five minutes, you build upon it. Spiritually you go far deeper into the Person of God, his ways, his thoughts, our response to him.
I forgot to mention earlier in v2 that the word translated baptisms is the word washings in Hebrew. The washings referred to are the ceremonial washings in the Mosaic Law. The vessels used in temple worship and the priest. Also, did you read the posting on 8/29 at 11:19? Just wondering because you usually respond back.

How are the Hebrews supposed to leave the principles of the doctrine of Christ? By not laying down again this list of Jewish doctrine. You worded pretty accurately how Christianity offers a deeper understanding and relationship with God then Judiasm does, though you didn't mean to. The foundational teachings of Christ were laid in Judiasm.

84

News Item8/30/13 1:09 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
John for JESUS wrote:
1) No, they are not totally Christian doctrines. John Gill does a decent commentary on Hebrews 6:1-2 that might be of help to you.
It is good to see you having a look at John Gill, although sometimes his great learning got in the way of simple Bible explanations. His understanding of Hebrews 6:1-2 is IMHO completely wrong. Here is why:

Hebrews 6:1 KJV
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

It is the words "not laying again the foundation...."

He is talking about "building" on a foundation, not forever going over the basics which were the foundational doctrines. A house is built on a foundation which, once it is laid, you don't look at it every five minutes, you build upon it. Spiritually you go far deeper into the Person of God, his ways, his thoughts, our response to him.

The foundation for Christianity is Jesus Christ and him crucified and resurrected; it is our repentance from sin and faith in him; it is being baptised in water as identification with him. You can't go deeper until you understand these basic things. They are foundational.

83

News Item8/30/13 12:28 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
John UK wrote:
1. I don't see where you get that from.
Hebrews 6:1-2 KJV
2.
1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us.....
It's clear enough, John. Observe "like figure"....
1) No, they are not totally Christian doctrines. John Gill does a decent commentary on Hebrews 6:1-2 that might be of help to you. The Hebrews were just scolded for not moving on to meat from milk in the previous chapter. The Jews understood who the Messiah was supposed to be, but Christianity teaches a more perfect picture of who He is. Repentance from dead works is referring to the Jewish priest killing animals for forgiveness. Jews believed that God was the God of Israel only. The priest would lay hands on the animals to transfer guilt. The Jewish beliefs on the Ressurection and Judgement were/are incomplete.
2) The waters of the Flood were a figure of baptism, not the other way around. The waters came and destroyed sin and lifted up the Ark for their salvation. In Christ we are saved. Water baptism does not destroy sin and save us!
82

News Item8/30/13 11:46 AM
Y'wot  Find all comments by Y'wot
John UK wrote:
..in the Presby economy....all you have to do to make new Christians is - no, not go out as missionaries preaching the gospel at home or abroad - no, all you have to do is procreate as much as you can, and Lo, loadsa new Christian babies who will grow up thinking they're believers and become the future pastors and elders, which system will inevitably result in unregenerate folks getting into office, which thing will inevitably result in a falling away, until there is no Christian witness left in PresbyLand, when the Presby will naturally come back to Rome and be a grave upset to John Knox, who will inevitably be very annoyed at ever having listened to Mr Calvin and his Geneva Project, whereby religion is enforced and the poor children have H2O sprinkled all over their little faces, much to their upset, which inevitably leads to an unbalanced childhood, as they go about with their water pistols, trying to emulate their elders, baptising other little children as often as possible, much to the upset of their parents, who do not believe baptising the heathen kids, nor of preaching the gospel to them lest they repent and as non-covenant children come to attend their elite church and all.
81

News Item8/30/13 11:43 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Well folks, in the Presby economy, if the Presby elders accept you as a Christian couple, all you have to do to make new Christians is - no, not go out as missionaries preaching the gospel at home or abroad - no, all you have to do is procreate as much as you can, and Lo, loadsa new Christian babies who will grow up thinking they're believers and become the future pastors and elders, which system will inevitably result in unregenerate folks getting into office, which thing will inevitably result in a falling away, until there is no Christian witness left in PresbyLand, when the Presby will naturally come back to Rome and be a grave upset to John Knox, who will inevitably be very annoyed at ever having listened to Mr Calvin and his Geneva Project, whereby religion is enforced and the poor children have H2O sprinkled all over their little faces, much to their upset, which inevitably leads to an unbalanced childhood, as they go about with their water pistols, trying to emulate their elders, baptising other little children as often as possible, much to the upset of their parents, who do not believe baptising the heathen kids, nor of preaching the gospel to them lest they repent and as non-covenant children come to attend their elite church and all.

Ahhhhh.....that better.

80

News Item8/30/13 11:33 AM
Y'wot  Find all comments by Y'wot
The Bible Says wrote:
"Since there is no explicit command to either baptize or withhold baptism from young children, interpretive prudence requires us to look for precedence in the previous covenant. ....
The previous covenant?! This begs the question whether there were any differences between the covenants and assumes that there were none. What utter tripe!

Biblical Practice wrote:
Baptism of the 'seed' - The children of True Christians.
"Take, in the next place, the important passage in I Cor. 7:14. "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: else were your children unclean, but now are they holy." ...In this perplexity the apostle says, that the faith of one parent is sufficient to guaranty their covenant standing. They are not to be excluded. "On the maturest and most impartial consideration of this passage," says Doddridge, "I must judge it to refer to infant baptism." (Charles Hodge)
More ignorant rubbish from the Tripe pedlar. Hodge reads into the passage "the faith of one parent is sufficient to guaranty their covenant standing" and thinks that's okay. That's called Eisegesis!
79

News Item8/30/13 11:20 AM
Biblical Practice  Find all comments by Biblical Practice
Baptism of the 'seed' - The children of True Christians.

"Take, in the next place, the important passage in I Cor. 7:14. "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: else were your children unclean, but now are they holy." In what sense are the children "holy" when there is one believing parent? Not inherently, certainly, for this is not true of them by nature when both parents are pious. It must refer to the covenant or church relation in which such children are placed, and was no doubt intended to solve a practical difficulty that arose very early in the church. They seem to have been at a loss what to do when only one parent was pious -- a difficulty, by the way, which never could have arisen if the children were to be left out any how, even if both parents were believers. In this perplexity the apostle says, that the faith of one parent is sufficient to guaranty their covenant standing. They are not to be excluded. "On the maturest and most impartial consideration of this passage," says Doddridge, "I must judge it to refer to infant baptism." (Charles Hodge)

78

News Item8/30/13 10:13 AM
penelope  Find all comments by penelope
baptism is a precious gift from the Lord. and my vines growing outside are adorned with beauty. not sure why modernism leads us to explain away some of the great experiences of life? there is joy in publicly expressing one's faith, and a story is told through baptism.
77

News Item8/30/13 10:07 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Christopher000 wrote:
When it comes to infants, I always think about Jesus himself being baptized by John only as an adult. I'm sure this was brought up already, but it is what I always consider. Although, I do wonder why it wasn't until he began His ministry at the age of 30(?).
Maybe it was just that, Christopher, to publicly launch him in his ministry.
76

News Item8/30/13 9:04 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
When it comes to infants, I always think about Jesus himself being baptized by John only as an adult. I'm sure this was brought up already, but it is what I always consider. Although, I do wonder why it wasn't until he began His ministry at the age of 30(?).
75

News Item8/30/13 8:09 AM
The Bible Says  Find all comments by The Bible Says
"Since there is no explicit command to either baptize or withhold baptism from young children, interpretive prudence requires us to look for precedence in the previous covenant. As we do this, we see that God, at least one time in history, has explicitly commanded that the sign of the covenant be administered to a person who does not yet possess that which the sign signifies.

We see that the sign of the covenant is commanded by God to be given to infants—not to all infants, indiscriminately—but only to those infants within the covenant community; only to children of parents who are within the visible household of faith (R.C.Sproul).

The question is: What degree of continuity do we find between the sign of the old covenant and the sign of the new covenant?

The sign of the new covenant is not circumcision; it is baptism—so there is discontinuity in terms of the actual sign.

There appears, however, to be tremendous continuity in terms of what the sign signifies. Circumcision signified a being in a right relationship with God (Gen. 17). Moses, and the prophets qualify this for us by saying that, in reality, only circumcision of the heart can accomplish this right relationship. In a similar manner, baptism signifies union with Christ (Rom. 6:3-5)" (Rev B.MacPhail)

74

News Item8/30/13 7:35 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
didactic wrote:
John.
didactic.
73

News Item8/30/13 6:48 AM
didactic  Find all comments by didactic
John UK wrote:
I don't see
Bible teaching to help you see, John.

Covenant Baptism for Infants

Covenant Baptism

The Covenantal Significance of Baptism

"Q. Is there any record in the Bible where God forbade the children of believing parents the right of the outward seal of church membership in the church of the New Testament dispensation?
A. No, there is not. But on the other hand, God has affirmed that the children of believing parents in the New Testament dispensation have the same right to the outward seal of membership in the church that the children of believing parents had in the Old Testament dispensation (Gal. 3:29; 1 Cor. 7:13-14; Mk. 10:13-14; Ac. 2:39)." (C.Z.Berryhill)

72

News Item8/30/13 4:56 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
John for JESUS wrote:
1) The Hebrews were being encouraged to leave behind some of the teachings of Judiasm and move on to the more perfect teachings of Christianity. One of those things to leave behind was ceremonial washings (baptisms in the Greek).
2) Seeing that water baptism doesn't save anyone and there is only one baptism, which baptism saves in 1 Peter 3:21?
1. I don't see where you get that from.

Hebrews 6:1-2 KJV
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Paul's words "not laying again" should give you the clue as to what covenant he was referring to. These doctrines were all basic Christian doctrines, including "baptisms".
2.
1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us.....

It's clear enough, John. Observe "like figure"....

71

News Item8/30/13 2:24 AM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
1) sigh, even if I agreed with your point about Paul and Peter (I don't) they have been residents of heaven for nearly 2000 years. The command is to GO YE (in your case meaning J4J) 2) do YOU have the power to baptize people with the Holy Spirit? I know I don't, I don't know ANYBODY who who current does (except for the Charismatics who claim to have the gift) You can't reword the command, it was preach, baptize, and teach until the end of the age. So, if the only baptism is Spirit baptism, then those who are expected to obey must have that power. 3) Are you saying that is what is meant?
1) I find it disturbing you don't agree with what the Bible says about Peter and John laying on of hands to baptize in the Holy Spirit. In case you didn't actually read it. Acts 8:17, "Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."
2) Yes. Remember how the Gentiles were baptized while Peter yet spoke? The laying on of hands was not always necessary. The preaching of the word is necessary though and any Spirit-filled believer can be a witness. 3) Believers have the ability to preach the gospel, which leads to the baptism of the Spirit, and can teach doctrine or disciple others as Jesus commanded.
70

News Item8/29/13 11:19 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
John UK wrote:
John 1:32-33 KJV
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
and...
1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Now John, which one of these baptisms continued after pentecost, and which one became obsolete, as you reckoned earlier?
John the Baptist was sent to baptize in water (John 1:33) and all believers are baptized into one body by the one Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13). I already said John's baptism is obsolete and, I would also like to add, was only for Jews. Btw, this is another place in scripture which says there is one body and one Spirit. How many baptisms are there now?
I believe the sign of the dove descending on Jesus was for the benefit of John to know who the Messiah was. The Spirit was not yet given in baptism because Jesus had not yet ascended.
69

News Item8/29/13 11:04 PM
penelope  Find all comments by penelope
the early church practiced full believer's water baptism and they were familiar with the concept, seeing as many Hebrews took part in ceremonial washings.

it is a church tradition that goes back to the time of Christ and even before.

murals - in first 400 yrs show adults being baptized, not infants.

some would submerge in the water three times, in the Father, in the Son, and in the Holy Spirit.

68

News Item8/29/13 9:21 PM
John for JESUS | Atl  Find all comments by John for JESUS
John UK wrote:
1. Yep, I am a learner not a teacher. I wonder what you are, John?
The baptisms referred to in Hebrews 6 come among a selection of new covenant doctrines. Amazing how Paul, speaking to Christians, suddenly brings in some old covenant baptisms, eh?
2. No, water never saved anyone. But I've been to plenty of charismatic and pentecostal churches to know that what passes for Spirit baptism in these circles is none of the sort, but a grand deception. "Toronto Blessing" and other deceptions like "The Holy Ghost Weekend" arranged by the Alpha Course, are designs of Satan to fill the churches with tares.
Be not deceived.
1) The Hebrews were being encouraged to leave behind some of the teachings of Judiasm and move on to the more perfect teachings of Christianity. One of those things to leave behind was ceremonial washings (baptisms in the Greek).
2) Seeing that water baptism doesn't save anyone and there is only one baptism, which baptism saves in 1 Peter 3:21?
67
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