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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  7/10/2014
Choice News MONDAY, AUG 19, 2013  |  146 comments
Presbyterian Church (USA) drops In Christ Alone from hymnal

An extraordinary dispute has arisen over a lyric contained one of the most beloved contemporary Christian hymns of the modern-day Church, "In Christ Alone".

According to Bob Smietana of USA Today, the committee putting together a new hymnal for the Presbyterian Church (USA) dropped the popular hymn because the song's authors refused to change a phrase about the wrath of God.

He said that the original lyrics say that "on that cross, as Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied."

The Presbyterian Committee on Congregational Song wanted to substitute the words, "the love of God was magnified." ...


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Page 1 | Page 3 ·  Found: 146 user comment(s)
News Item8/24/13 4:10 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Trenton7 wrote:
Still waiting for the uninspired hymn users to provide us with the ...
How about these verses. Exodus 15:1, Numbers 21:17; Judges 5:3; I Chronicles 16:23,33 Job 35:10 and Revelation 15:3. ALL examples of songs sung in praise to God that are not psalms. Also, as I predicted you have NO verse FORBIDDING the use of songs of praise to our Lord Jesus. In fact you have no verse saying you can ONLY use psalms. Remember, everybody here believes in singing psalms. You mention idolatry, yet you will not find anyone in my camp worshiping the use of hymns, we are worshiping our God. We do see those in your camp worshiping your view of psalms only, so who is on the verge of idolatry? You make false accusations that we cast away Scripture when hymns are FILLED with Scripture. You see the problem you face is that your start with the wrong premise, that God only accepts psalms as acceptable songs in worship, thus any conclusions you use to build your argument are on the sinking sand of your errant premise. Once again, the burden of proof is with you. I just gave you 8 verses (have more) and didn't even include the SONG of Solomon. God bless.
106

News Item8/24/13 3:28 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Oh dear, now here we have some unenlightened soul. I would hate to have children in the audience imagining that death is the end of our worship of Almighty God. However, the new covenant revelation is more complete.

Psalms 6:5 KJV
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

I rather think I will be rejoicing in Christ when I die, for my spirit will go straight into the presence of the Son of God. As Paul also preached:

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

We can learn a lot from the Psalms, but certain doctrines need a further revelation, especially death and resurrection.

105

News Item8/24/13 3:21 PM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Still waiting for one of the Psalm only group to quote one verse (not catechism, not commentary, not confession of faith) that FORBIDS use of something other than the psalms in a worship service. Something forbidding songs using other Scriptures than the psalms. (hard to believe that God somehow rejects the songs of those singing for instance the so called Lord's prayer, or Handel's Messiah as unScriptural--maybe y'all don't realize that ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God)Where is the Scripture, as John UK pointed out, that says you can't sing anthems of praise to our Lord Jesus Christ.(those in Revelation missed that warning)
Im not in the Psalm only crowd, because my Church uses a common Hymnal. While I have put forward the idea, it received little consideration as our Music Ministry is the most powerful lobby here. They feel strongly about Hymns use in educating our Congregation. Like Catholics and their icons(Because they argue they help them understand Scripture), our Music people will not let go of their Hymns. I find their tenacity for the hymnal borders on idolatry.

ps- Ive noticed music ministry people on the most part tend to be more liberal in their views than the Congregations they serve

104

News Item8/24/13 3:19 PM
Trenton7 | Aul  Find all comments by Trenton7
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Still waiting for one of the Psalm only group to quote one verse (not catechism, not commentary, not confession of faith) that FORBIDS use of something other than the psalms
Still waiting for the uninspired hymn users to provide us with the authority for ditching God's ordained praise in the book of Psalms in favour of using sinners compositions from the 17th/18th century.

God's purpose in providentially and gracefully providing His followers with the Bible including the Psalms was to bring them into likemindedness with Christ Jesus. To teach sound doctrine. To help us reach into the divine mind.

Why then do the hymn users cast away Scriptures?
(1) Entertainment? After all its the enjoyment of the music and the Lyrics which the humans prefer over Psalms.

(2) Proof that the Scriptures don't really count for some "Christians"? We see the Liberals and Roman Catholics remove parts of Bible to usurp God's will for man's religious inclinations.

(3) Idolatry? Putting human ability above God and before HIS ordained praise?

(4) Perhaps UPS and John just don't like this part of the Bible and prefer something more humanly enjoyable between boring old sermons?

103

News Item8/24/13 3:08 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Can you imagine a PO church singing this line?

Psalms 5:11 KJV
11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

worth repeating eh?

Psalms 5:11 KJV
11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

Now Steve, how can you sing such a thing yet chastise them that actually do such a thing? Is it hypocrisy?

Note:
"ever shout for joy..."
"rejoice..."
"joyful in thee..."

Ever seen anything like it?

Does PO-Man ever SHOUT FOR JOY?

Nay lad, it's improper!

Nay fella, it's singing stuff by rote, without any consideration of the words. It's hypocrisy and formal religion. You call it "proper worship", I call it a nonsense. God is not mocked.

Listen and learn, and get revival! Be filled with the Holy Ghost and forget toeing your party line. Remember, in these days of "falling away", you may find your party line takes you away with them.

102

News Item8/24/13 3:04 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Still waiting for one of the Psalm only group to quote one verse (not catechism, not commentary, not confession of faith) that FORBIDS use of something other than the psalms in a worship service.
Unprofitable Servant
John UK Wales
BUT since the subject of using Scripture aright has come up I have to appreciate you too Christopher000, JPW and several others who post here on SermonAudio in that you demonstrate a growing obdience to the commandment of the Lord Jesus Christ, that we love one another!

I simply cannot see us tramping off to Mass or some super sophisticated Psalms Only service but I believe we would have no problem singing together for hours of our love for Jesus Christ who died and shed His blood for us, and sitting listening intently to hear His word preached and then praying at the alter for one another and those we so long to see come to salvation...things like that!

Why! We may even SHOUT! AMEN! and PRAISE GOD! PRAISE GOD! and not have to apologize or explain why we would do such an ussophisticated thing.

101

News Item8/24/13 2:57 PM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
Ryland D. wrote:
John UK thinks that Jesus is not in the Old Testament. Perhaps the Jewish veil is still over his eyes....
"IT IS SAID of our Lord Jesus Christ that, beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he declared unto his disciples in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself" (Luke 24:27). It is therefore manifest that Moses, and the Prophets, and all the Scriptures, give testimony to Him and His glory. This is the line of life and light which runs through the whole Old Testament; without which we can understand nothing aright in it; and the neglect of it is that which makes many as blind in reading the books of it as are the Jews, the veil being upon their minds. It is faith alone, discovering the glory of Christ, that can remove that veil of darkness which covers the minds of men in reading the Old Testament, as the apostle declares (II Cor. 3:14–16). (John Owen).
Amen
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

100

News Item8/24/13 2:56 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Let me see now:

Psalms 5:5-7 KJV
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
7 But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

When Christians speak like this, they are accused of being self-righteous and holier-than-thou.

v5......the foolish?

Ahhhh yes:

Observe: in the new covenant:

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 KJV
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Observe:
"thou hatest..."
"thou shalt destroy them..."
"the Lord will abhor..."

No wonder the PO people are so full of sectarian violence.

The wrath of God abides upon them that believe not.

99

News Item8/24/13 2:51 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
Still waiting for one of the Psalm only group to quote one verse (not catechism, not commentary, not confession of faith) that FORBIDS use of something other than the psalms in a worship service. Something forbidding songs using other Scriptures than the psalms. (hard to believe that God somehow rejects the songs of those singing for instance the so called Lord's prayer, or Handel's Messiah as unScriptural--maybe y'all don't realize that ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God)Where is the Scripture, as John UK pointed out, that says you can't sing anthems of praise to our Lord Jesus Christ.(those in Revelation missed that warning) We are all learners here, show us the Biblical basis for not using Scriptures or Scriptural principles for music to glorify God.

We have verses in the N.T. only about relief of the famine stricken in Judea, so that means (according to your logic) we can't help others in the same dilemma in other parts of the world nowadays? The only place we find the fruits of the Spirit delineated is Galatians, so we can't experience those other than in that part of Europe? Just using same logic that says because only psalms are mentioned only they can be sung. See how illogical it is? Sorry to say, I suspect not.

98

News Item8/24/13 2:48 PM
Ryland D. | Fgh  Find all comments by Ryland D.
John UK wrote:
"Now you'll notice that we never ever mention the name JESUS in our singing, because the name does not appear anywhere in our hymnbook
John UK thinks that Jesus is not in the Old Testament. Perhaps the Jewish veil is still over his eyes....

"IT IS SAID of our Lord Jesus Christ that, beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he declared unto his disciples in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself" (Luke 24:27). It is therefore manifest that Moses, and the Prophets, and all the Scriptures, give testimony to Him and His glory. This is the line of life and light which runs through the whole Old Testament; without which we can understand nothing aright in it; and the neglect of it is that which makes many as blind in reading the books of it as are the Jews, the veil being upon their minds. It is faith alone, discovering the glory of Christ, that can remove that veil of darkness which covers the minds of men in reading the Old Testament, as the apostle declares (II Cor. 3:14–16). I shall consider briefly some of those ways and means whereby the glory of Christ was represented to believers under the Old Testament." (John Owen).

97

News Item8/24/13 2:38 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Ah well, on we go.

Psalms 3:6-7 KJV
6 I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people, that have set themselves against me round about.
7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies upon the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.

Now Steve, do you remember how many times the Lord himself smote his enemies, sometimes killing thousands at a stroke? Hmmmmmm.

Or when he told his people to go stomping around a city every day, eventually blowing all their trumpets together? And what transpired? Ahhhhhh, the Lord pulled down all the walls and the city was taken.

Or when Moses led his people across a dried-up river bed until they were across? And the Lord pulled all the wheels off Pharaoh's chariots so they couldn't escape when the waters came back.

Or when the angel of death flew throughout Egypt killing the firstborn of every man and beast?

Now suppose you were surrounded by thousands of men bent on killing you. Would you be afraid? Maybe you think the NT God acts in the same way as the OT God? Well it is the same Jehovah, but somehow I don't think he goes about slaughtering his enemies like he used to.

Eh?

Ever wondered why US Christians carry a gun?

96

News Item8/24/13 2:36 PM
Myw  Find all comments by Myw
John UK wrote:
Sure thing, I'll go through them which cannot apply to the Christian, unless they are re-interpreted to suit the new covenant.
Psalms 1:1-2 KJV
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Now then Steve, do you meditate in the law day and night?
The moral law (ten commandments) does apply to the born again Christian.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
(Rom 7:22)

John Gill: “…only a regenerate man delights in the law of God; which he does, as it is fulfilled by Christ, who has answered all the demands of it: and as it is in the hands of Christ, held forth by him as a rule of holy walk and conversation; and as it is written upon his heart by the Spirit of God, to which he yields a voluntary and cheerful obedience…”

95

News Item8/24/13 2:27 PM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
Now then Steve, do you meditate in the law day and night?
I do, all Christians are called to. However, it doesnt surprise me you dont
94

News Item8/24/13 2:11 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
OK... back to square one...explain why Psalms apply differently after Atonement ...
Sure thing, I'll go through them which cannot apply to the Christian, unless they are re-interpreted to suit the new covenant.

Psalms 1:1-2 KJV
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Now then Steve, do you meditate in the law day and night?

What is this "law"? The law encompasses the entire ceremonial, sacrificial and moral system.

Do you ponder on the day of atonement, the sacrifices of bulls and goats, the special underwear for priests, the laver, the temple et al?

Rather I think the Christian needs to be pondering on the fulfilment of all these types, especially the sacrificial lamb, the Lord Jesus Christ, and salvation by grace alone, apart from works.

John 1:17 KJV
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The psalmist would not want us to obey his analysis of a godly man, except it be seen in the light of new covenant reality.

Eh?

93

News Item8/24/13 2:00 PM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
Well for sure, ask anybody, if they think you are being supercilious. The answer is yes, most certainly.
I'm outta here.
Later.......
War is declared!
War and your first act is retreating? How Funny
(btw-I am not a war with you as I dont go to war with children)

anyways
You couldnt defend your position on Psalms because you didnt understand the Calvinist understanding of 'Covenant of Grace.' You cant just jump on the Reformed bandwagon and jump off everytime you feel like it

92

News Item8/24/13 1:51 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
I cant tell if you are being disingenous or just plain ignorant.
Well for sure, ask anybody, if they think you are being supercilious. The answer is yes, most certainly.

I'm outta here.

Later.......

War is declared!

91

News Item8/24/13 1:38 PM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
Deflecting?! What utter tripe!
The covenant or pact made between the Father and Son is ALL about THE GOSPEL.
Man, you really don't see it do you?
Well let me tell you again, the GOOD NEWS is the GOSPEL, and the gospel is only possible because of a covenant of grace.
I cant tell if you are being disingenous or just plain ignorant.

OK... back to square one...explain why Psalms apply differently after Atonement which is what the discussion was about before you tried to conceal your error

90

News Item8/24/13 1:30 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
Why are you deflecting? You cant answer for your many errors so now you wish to use the Gospel for a cloke of your maliciousness?
sad
Deflecting?! What utter tripe!

The covenant or pact made between the Father and Son is ALL about THE GOSPEL.

Man, you really don't see it do you?

Well let me tell you again, the GOOD NEWS is the GOSPEL, and the gospel is only possible because of a covenant of grace.

89

News Item8/24/13 1:19 PM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
Are you saying I am wrong on the gospel?
If you are, then I can only concur that you yourself are a false teacher, a works-salvationist. And nearly every other poster on these threads will stand with me on my gospel presentation.
Steve, we are at war.
See to it.
Why are you deflecting? You cant answer for your many errors so now you wish to use the Gospel for a cloke of your maliciousness?

sad

88

News Item8/24/13 1:17 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Michael Hranek wrote:
John UK Wales
Short comment here, I once asked a coworker who had long years ago been in an Islamic country before all the terrorism etc. and asked hiim what Christian hymn might Muslims not like.
He told me, the children's song
Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ENtBWFFN5o
Hmmm, I guess singing something like that would come out of using the Bible aright, and something us almost old timers can sometimes appreciate more than a little child
Even is some object to children loving Him
Bro Michael, this is still one of my favourite hymns, and is a great encouragement during times of trial. The love of Christ can be known and felt, but if not, then it is good to have the word of God which assures us of his interest in dark days.

Ephesians 3:17-19 KJV
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to KNOW the LOVE OF CHRIST, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

87
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