Matthew Vines Launches 'Reformation Project' to Make Churches Gay-Affirming
Matthew Vines, a Harvard-educated gay Christian who sparked a great deal of controversy in the church community last year with his in-depth analysis on why the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, has launched a new leadership training conference aimed at teaching Christians how to lead LGBT-friendly churches and communities.
In a video announcing the project, Vines says The Reformation Project will "train, connect and empower gay Christians and their allies to reform church teaching on homosexuality from the ground up."
Vines gained a wide recognition and stirred controversy last year with his hour-long YouTube video, which has gained over half a million views, where he presented a detailed argument on why he believes the Bible does not condemn gay people....
Thanks Rufus. For I Cor 3:15, I always read that to mean, say I gave to the poor, but I always did it begrudgingly or only put a dollar in the cup when others were watching...then that work would have been in vain, etc, and not count in that day...burned up.
I am not saying I'm right...you all know much better than I do but I'm just saying thats how I understood it up until now. I'm sure I am way off but that's nothing new. Interesting thread.
"A believer can return to his vomit, can become slothful, can become a drunkard, can become a murderer and yes can become a sodomite. It does not mean he is disowned by his father..."
I would have to say that the "new believer" was the victim of a placebo effect maybe? Knowing where I am at now, knowing how the most trivial of sins bother me, and knowing how disgusted I am whenever I think of my past, I know for certain that I will never, ever revisit my past sins. I also can't, for the life of me, imagine myself falling back into any consistent, grievous type of sin. I know I will sin, and I will sin often, but if I were to decide to become a drunkard or a sodomite, or whatever, I don't know how I could consider myself a born again Christian any longer. I don't understand how I could die in those sins, but still be welcomed into Heaven. This is a problem area for me because I just don't understand how that could work. I can see myself commiting a particular sin once, regretting it, asking forgiveness and never doing it again, but to do whatever, over and over, because I am saved and still expect everything to be ok is difficult for me to grasp.
Rufus wrote: Later however, King David sinned in his approach to a son who raped and sinned in his approach to a son who murdered and rebelled against the king. One might say the tenor of his life was not good. Now I love King David so I don't want to impugn him as much as magnify the mercy of David's heavenly father and demonstrate that one who is Godly can start out with a little bit of sin and watch that turn into a whole lot of sin and throughout the whole process still be eternally saved. As abominable as sodomy is, it is as worthy of death as adultery, lying, murder etc. and if one engages in slothfulness, adultery in the heart, adultery in deed, deception, and murder and be eternally saved, it is possible for a believer to be given up to a reprobate mind and yet still be eternally saved.
My point was to contrast David "and others" who are saved with the fellow the article was about. This fellow is not saved, nor has he ever been saved. David was a man after God's own heart who fell into grevious sin and repented.
If we don't have the righteousness of Christ, (His perfection) then we are still sinners and will face God's wrath.
The article was about homosexuality and someone who is trying to lead God's children astray.
Frank wrote: Sorry, I guess I wasn't all that clear. I don't remember David telling Bathsheba that it was God's will for them to have sex and according to scripture. If I'm not mistaken, I thought that God punished David for those things and then he repented and turned from them. ...
He repented after the messenger of the Lord (Nathan) lighted his darkened heart.
Later however, King David sinned in his approach to a son who raped and sinned in his approach to a son who murdered and rebelled against the king. One might say the tenor of his life was not good.
Now I love King David so I don't want to impugn him as much as magnify the mercy of David's heavenly father and demonstrate that one who is Godly can start out with a little bit of sin and watch that turn into a whole lot of sin and throughout the whole process still be eternally saved.
As abominable as sodomy is, it is as worthy of death as adultery, lying, murder etc. and if one engages in slothfulness, adultery in the heart, adultery in deed, deception, and murder and be eternally saved, it is possible for a believer to be given up to a reprobate mind and yet still be eternally saved.
Problemo wrote: The dog/vomit illustration is used to demostrate that there was no change of nature viz. there was no conversion. As such it is not suited to describe Christians.
Agree fully, that is what my post said, unless I worded it poorly. Let me know if it was confusing and I will rewrite it. The folks in Jesus' parable of the sower didn't lose their salvation; they were never saved. Jesus spoke to them in parables so they wouldn't perceive, hear, and understand, etc. I was comparing them to the dogs. They were never saved. Those that went out from Paul; were never saved, etc.
They were always dogs and they simply returned to acting like dogs!
Thanks for your response. It gave me a chance to clarify.
problemo, it is very clear that The Bible Says Homosexuality is Sin What the article really has wrong there is no such thing as a queer Christian. A homosexual can never be a Christian.
It is strange that our Federal laws have loosen their hold on the truth.
1 Timothy 1 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,---NASB
Another clue is Peter‚Äôs use of the word "dog" that returns to his own vomit. It would seem like the dog would be compatible with someone like Judas, or the people Jesus is referring to in the parable of the sower.
Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
Otherwise the believer who theoretically lost his salvation was a dog as a believer! Also, if you remember, Paul on occasion said "they went out from us, therefore we know they were not one of us". He did not say or imply that they were one of us and then left us.
Rufus wrote: I must confess then, I do have a real problem. A believer can return to his vomit
The difference would become clear if we considered the change that takes place at conversion. It is not merely a change of moral outlook. The principle that actuates a person changes altogether. The person previously ruled by sin has a new master and now is ruled by the Holy Spirit.
The whole tenor of his life changes. The sins he previously loved he now hates. The evil company he used to keep brings no pleasure to him. The Christians he used to despise, now he finds a love towards them. The book which was a mystery now speaks to his heart. The God he was a stranger to, is now his heavenly Father and he finds he cannot but talk daily to him. He delights in Gods company and his closet is now his favorite place, next to the place where he has fellowship with God's people.
This is now his normal, daily, weekly, monthly life. His habitual life.
It is not easy because he has to struggle against the world, the flesh and the devil, but his new relationship with God spurs him on in the warfare. He may lose some battles, but he will confess his sins and be more determined not to fall. He always has the comfort of Christ's blood which
Rufus wrote: Accept for Bathsheba and Joab of course.
Sorry, I guess I wasn't all that clear. I don't remember David telling Bathsheba that it was God's will for them to have sex and according to scripture. If I'm not mistaken, I thought that God punished David for those things and then he repented and turned from them.
My guess is that when David was doing all those things, he pretty much didn't mention God at all. I don't remember him saying let's kill this fellow so I can marry his wife; it is God's will and it is okay and according to scripture.
A better example would be the fellow that was sleeping with his step-mother, but we don't know the agony he was going through. But there is no indication that he was publicly trying to get others for do what he was doing? And, he repented and turned from that sin as well.
Frank wrote: A Christian can lapse into sin, perhaps even what we might call habitual sin, but they will agonize over it, confess it, turn from it and ask their heavenly Father to deliver them from all sin. They will not and cannot practice sin without this spiritual battle taking place. Anyone who practices sin as this fellow does and tries to get others to do the same thing cannot be in the faith, nor was ever in the faith. The only thing confusing about any of this is how we each define the term habitual. But, I am unaware that David or any other saved person in scripture attempted to get others to join them in their folly.
For what it is worth my two mites. The Scripture says if we walk in the light (the normal tenure of our life) as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ, His Son, cleanses us FROM sin. Then the next verses deal with confession of sin. In the model prayer (termed the Lord's prayer) which is a daily pattern, one of the request is forgive us of our trespasses. Even David said who can know his error, cleanse me from secret faults. There is a goal in I John 2:1 that we sin not, and that ought to be our goal by the grace of God to not only see sins fruits but its roots no longer have an influence in our lives. But even the apostle Paul said I die daily, so there is not a Christian who is breathing who does not battle daily with sin. The key here is we do battle. If a person says they know Him and walk (the normal tenure of their life) in darkness, they lie. It is no small job to make our calling and election sure, but one thing for sure, if we are not pursuing holiness, we are not going to see the Lord. In this day and age many take sin too lightly (alas myself included) and there is little contrition and brokenness over that which caused our Lord to suffer such anguish and woe. May God give us grace to follow the admonition of II Corinthians 7:1 for His glory