Jesus may have been progressive in more ways than one, according to a new billboard in Auckland.
The St Matthew in the City billboard, which is released each Christmas, this year depicts the baby Jesus in his crib surrounded by a halo of rainbow colours.
"It's Christmas," the billboard reads. "It's time for Jesus to come out."
Reverend Glynn Cardy said the sign was about trying to lift the humanity of Jesus.
Biblical ways wrote: Pure heresy John. Now I know I was right when I called you hyper-wesleyan. The simple fact is that the arminian brigade have never been able to define and comprehend sin properly. John you are now implying that Jesus is totally depraved just like the sinners.
You're just woffling, that's all.
I see you do not like to answer my question about sinless Eve struggling with the devil when he tempted her. If she had gone straight into prayer for support from God, she may even have gained a victory in the garden.
The devil is far, far cleverer than you imagine. He does not waste his time trying to achieve the impossible.
Ephesians 6:12-13 KJV 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Sorry to bud-in on you gentlemen, I have to agree with what John UK says, now there is a big difference between being tempted and giving in to temptation.
Observer wrote: Jesus Christ, Almighty God Manifest In The Flesh [I Tim. 3:16], Did Indeed Come Into This World--But He Never Ever Fell Into The Sin Of This World--Especially ....
Are you the same "Observer" who was on SA earlier this year challenging Presbys on infant baptism? If not, you may want to change your moniker just so that people don't confuse you with him.
Hebrews 2:14-18 KJV 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
If folks would like to meditate on v18, you will arrive shortly at the truth.
Bible ways Are you saying that sinless Eve did NOT struggle with sin when it presented itself?
John UK wrote: You're attributing things I never said now to bolster your case, and it will not work.
Frank wrote: And Biblical ways; John UK never said nor would he say the Christ was a sinner, so you should be a little more civil and truthful!
If you are saying that Christ "struggles" with sin in the same way as sinners do, as you (John) have in your posts below. Then you are implying Christ is a sinner.
Christ did not struggle with sin.
Stop preaching the heresy of Christ is the same as we are. HE IS and ALWAYS WAS sinLESS!!
Oh and WE are NOT sinLESS - That makes a difference!!
I guess I just always grouped tempation and struggling together into one. I always thought that Jesus actually struggled, even though he never actually sinned, of course. I thought he struggled as a man and that is how he knows what it is like for mankind to struggle with the variety of temptations that we encounter on a daily basis. I always found comfort in thinking, hey, Jesus went through the same thing as I am, but he resisted and overcame. I don't know...I'll have to follow the comments to understand better.
Biblical ways wrote: John you must stop thinking of Jesus as a sinner. He wasn't!! He is and always was sinless. The "struggle" which sinners have in mortal life on earth comes from original sin IN THE SINNER.
Oh dear.
You're attributing things I never said now to bolster your case, and it will not work.
Let me see now. Did Eve have a sinful nature or was she perfect?
Did she struggle with sin when it presented itself?
Was she victorious over it?
Did Jesus struggle with sin when it presented itself?
Did Jesus cry out for assistance under such temptation?
Did Jesus sometimes pray ALL NIGHT?
Was Jesus always victorious over temptation?
Does Jesus know by experience what we go through on a daily basis?
Is he a great high priest able to understand our trials and comfort us in them because of his experience?
You ought to listen to Christopher who has gotten the gist of this already.
Christopher000 wrote: The way I see things are, like Frank (I think), Jesus was tempted with generalities, not every specific sin that mankind would ever encounter. The temptations encompassed all points in that he was tempted, for example, with fornication...a sexual sin, as opposed to being tempted with the gamet of ways in which one could commit sexual sin. I do wonder though: if Jesus wasn't ever tempted by the temptations, then he would have never had to struggle with those temptations, and if he never struggled with those temptations, then what was the point? I feel that if Satan's proposals, for example, were considered temptations, then would Jesus not have struggled, even a tiny, tiny bit in his extremely weakened physical and mental state? I've never, ever even thought of this before but you all got the wheels spinning.
I think we are all somewhat off base, but I tend to agree with the post by brobill as to the concept of "struggling", versus temptation.
But, I tend to think that all of Christ's temptations took place in the wilderness. But, I am not adamant.
And Biblical ways; John UK never said nor would he say the Christ was a sinner, so you should be a little more civil and truthful!
BroBill wrote: Temptation is when the platter of food is set before you. Struggle with temptation is when you take the time to consider the food and imagine yourself partaking. committing is grabbing a fork and digging in. Jesus was tempted by sin in that it was presented to him. He neither considered it or partook of it and therefore He was sinless. We sin when presented with a temptation and we consider it. "As a man thinketh, so he is in his heart."
In the garden, the serpent tempted Eve but her fall into sin was when she "considered" what the serpent had said. We are inundated by temptation every day (porn, drugs, idolatry) but it is only when we CONSIDER these things (allow our minds to dwell on them) that we can fall into sin. That is why we are told to guard our hearts because consideration of sin leads to sin, not temptation, for temptation can be resisted. Christ Never considered the temptations, therefore He could not(would not)sin.
Commentrary Heb 4:15 "Since, therefore, he speaks of infirmities akin to sin, there is no doubt but that he refers to the feelings or affections of the mind, to which our nature is liable, and that on account of its infirmity. For the condition of the angels is in this respect better than ours; for they sorrow not, nor fear, nor are they harassed by variety of cares, nor by the dread of death. These infirmities Christ of his own accord undertook, and he willingly contended with them, not only that he might attain a victory over them for us, but also that we may feel assured that he is present with us whenever we are tried by them.
Thus he not only really became a man, but he also assumed all the qualities of human nature. There is, however, a limitation added, WITHOUT SIN; for we must ever remember this difference between Christ's feelings or affections and ours, that his feelings were always regulated according to the strict rule of justice, while ours flow from a turbid fountain, and always partake of the nature of their source, for they are turbulent and unbridled" (J.Calvin)
The way I see things are, like Frank (I think), Jesus was tempted with generalities, not every specific sin that mankind would ever encounter. The temptations encompassed all points in that he was tempted, for example, with fornication...a sexual sin, as opposed to being tempted with the gamet of ways in which one could commit sexual sin. I'm not sure that I can imagine there being a checklist where Steve would make a pass at him or, well, you know...the animal thing, etc. I do wonder though: if Jesus wasn't ever tempted by the temptations, then he would have never had to struggle with those temptations, and if he never struggled with those temptations, then what was the point? I feel that if Satan's proposals, for example, were considered temptations, then would Jesus not have struggled, even a tiny, tiny bit in his extremely weakened physical and mental state? I've never, ever even thought of this before but you all got the wheels spinning. If I am way off base...be nice now!
BroBill wrote: Temptation is when the platter of food is set before you. Struggle with temptation is when you take the time to consider the food and imagine yourself partaking. committing is grabbing a fork and digging in. Jesus was tempted by sin in that it was presented to him. He neither considered it or partook of it and therefore He was sinless. We sin when presented with a temptation and we consider it. "As a man thinketh, so he is in his heart."
Well said! And well said to jgcommentary. Christ did not have an Adamic nature like the rest of us, so there is a huge difference. I have always looked at Christ's struggle before going to the cross as not wanting to avoid the cruel death of the cross; but knowing that He would be forsaken by His heavenly Father because of the sins of mankind that would be placed on Him. Remember, on the cross is the only time He addressed His heavenly Father as My God and said why have You forsaken Me. Also His prayer in the garden was to show mankind that there was no other way, but the cross. Had there been another way; He would have not went to the cross. Sorry just musing.
John UK wrote: Now there are some who imagine that because our Lord had no sin nature, that it was a a "no contest"
John you must stop thinking of Jesus as a sinner. He wasn't!!
He is and always was sinless.
The "struggle" which sinners have in mortal life on earth comes from original sin IN THE SINNER.
Similarly some people like Arminians think that faith is not the gift of God because if it is not treated as a faculty belonging to the individual then they cannot be tested. But in point of fact it is more of a test of the sinner that faith is the gift and work of God in them.
Sin is a dominating influence and power in the mortal. And comes from granny Eve and grampa Adam.
Jesus did not come from Adam and Eve.
His human form did experience the human emotions and feelings because the form was human. BUT HE WAS SINLESS. NO SIN!
What you are advocating is that Jesus was a sinner. HE was and is not.
Apparently from your perspective you agree with the poster below that Jesus was and experienced homosexual tendencies - since that too is sin. That is entirely wrong. Not even EVERY mortal experiences that sin. In other words you don't need to have every sin on the planet to be a sinner.
There are some who would cause to doubt that the Saviour can truly empathise with those struggling with all kinds of sin. Tell him that Jesus is omniscient, and it is not much encouragement. But tell him that Jesus knows by experience what it is like to suffer being tempted, and he realises that here is one who can really help. Observe again:
Hebrews 4:14-16 KJV 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in ALL POINTS tempted LIKE AS WE ARE, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Note that v16 which says "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace.." uses the word "therefore" because a good argument has been produced for doing such.
“For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted.... By Satan, at his entrance on his public ministry, and a little before his death; which was done, not by stirring up sin in him, for he had none, nor by putting any into him, which could not be done, nor could Satan get any advantage over him; he solicited him one thing and another, but in vain; though these temptations were very troublesome, and disagreeable, and abhorrent to the pure and holy nature of Christ, and so must be reckoned among his sufferings, or things by which he suffered: and as afflictions are sometimes called temptations, in this sense also Christ suffered, being tempted…â€
“yet without sin; there was no sin in his nature; though he was encompassed about with infirmities, yet not with sinful infirmities, only sinless ones; nor was there any sin in his temptations; though he was solicited to sin by Satan, yet he could find none in him to work upon; nor could he draw him into the commission of any sin.â€
Temptation is when the platter of food is set before you. Struggle with temptation is when you take the time to consider the food and imagine yourself partaking. committing is grabbing a fork and digging in. Jesus was tempted by sin in that it was presented to him. He neither considered it or partook of it and therefore He was sinless. We sin when presented with a temptation and we consider it. "As a man thinketh, so he is in his heart."
Frank wrote: John, I gotta go somewhere, but make sure you read my last post and let me know what you think. Interesting subject!
Thanks Frank, I missed it.
Now there are some who imagine that because our Lord had no sin nature, that it was a a "no contest" when it came to testing. Not true. Our Lord had some very hard times to endure, times when the suffering involved in procuring our salvation appeared just too much to bear. The struggle was so great that he sweat great drops of blood, such was the intense prayer and desire of assistance. The devil was there, trying to curtail his resolve. Anyone who claims there was no struggle with this needs to read and ponder this passage:
Matthew 26:36-39 KJV 36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. 37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
John UK wrote: As I see it, you are preaching heresy. Observe: "...but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin". Note particularly the words "like as we are". That means "like as we are".
As I see it you are preaching heresy
Being sinLESS - completely without sin - How could Christ "struggle" with something that does not exist within Him.
AGAIN Jesus did not come to earth to spend time here AS A SINNER.
Being Tempted is not the same as the mortal struggle with sin.
Can't you see the difference between a sinner and a sinless???
John UK wrote: As I see it, you are preaching heresy. Observe: "...but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin". Note particularly the words "like as we are". That means "like as we are".
John, I gotta go somewhere, but make sure you read my last post and let me know what you think. Interesting subject!
15
There are a total of 74 user comments displayed | add new comment |
Dr. Steven J. Lawson | 6/13/2010
Dr. Alan Cairns | 12/22/2008
COMMENTS | 
christopher000 from rhode island: "mike wrote:
'let me guess, she would also deny..."
