While stressing that the discussion between Calvinists and non-Calvinists in the Southern Baptist Convention is a family matter, speakers at the 2013 John 3:16 Conference outlined the differences between the two views and what they believe to be the issues hindering unity among Southern Baptists.
Frank Cox, pastor of North Metro Baptist Church in Lawrenceville, Ga., which hosted the conference on March 21-22, told attendees that the event would help them "engage in the conversation going on across the nation and the Southern Baptist Convention."
Jerry Vines, pastor emeritus of First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Fla., opened the conference by saying it was not about anger or fighting anyone over these issues....
Christopher000 wrote: Thanks for the chat, Observer. .....I can't figure out why He would choose me over the kindly old grandmother, who by worldly standards, lived a stellar, saintly life....
That's why it is called GRACE!
If God gave any of us what we deserved we'd all end up in hell.
And it is this sense of wonder... why me lord?... it should keep us constantly amazed and draw our hearts out to him. If he loved me such that he spared not his own Son, and gives me all things in him, what debt of gratitude do I owe him?
John UK Wrote: "And to think he adopts us into his own royal family. Can you imagine an orphan choosing to be adopted and by whom? It's never been heard of in the natural world, and certainly does not occur in the spiritual world."
Good analogy and helps to put it into perspective.
Thanks, LawB, for the reminder. I really haven't done much witnessing because I'm afraid I won't know what to say, how to respond to questions, etc. Honestly, I really don't know how to go about it yet and figure I'd blow it and maybe cause damage. Anyway, the reminder was about never knowing what kind of effect we may have on someone down the road. Maybe some people need to be watered by 10 people before something begins to change within them. We never know how important a sentence, a smile, a prayer, or any sort of attempt to witness may be to someone somewhere down the road. You are right in that we should not expect results, but should rather do as much watering as we can to prepare them for their next watering. I usually have better analogies...ha-ha. I'm listening to talk radio while typing this and my brain is smoking.
Christopher000 wrote: John, isn't this the verse that you had an epiphany on early one Sunday morning? I thought it looked familiar...you were very excited...is this the one?
Christopher, the chapter eight of Romans is very precious to believers, and yes, verse 30 is the only verse in the Bible which compasses eternity in both directions:
Romans 8:30 KJV 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
This is all God's work, and it is why we give him all the glory whenever a sinner is converted unto him. Even all the angels rejoice and give God praise whenever one sinner repents and turns to God. This is because repentance is by the grace of God, who "works it" in the heart of a rebel. Praise God for such grace, and for not giving up on sinners like us.
And to think he adopts us into his own royal family. Can you imagine an orphan choosing to be adopted and by whom? It's never been heard of in the natural world, and certainly does not occur in the spiritual world.
Romans 8:15 KJV 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Christopher000 wrote: I understand that it's all a mystery but that's whats on my mind everday when I thank Him each and every day for savi g such a wretch.
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me.....
Share the gospel with all you can not knowing who will respond or receive. That's the command from the Lord. Your praise to God for saving you is righteous and warranted. You can do nothing regarding those who have passed, but don't waste precious time pondering it for long. There are many who are still with us whom God has given us the privilege to be a part of His plan. It is easy to become discouraged after trying to reason with sinners. But to do so is to demean the influence of the Holy Spirit in our witness. If the salvation of a single soul depended solely upon us, we should be depressed if we see little visible and immediate fruit of our labors. However, the Bible tells us that "salvation is of the Lord." We do play a part as a co-laborer with Christ - He may instruct us to roll the stone away, but it is the Lord alone who calls the sinner from the tomb of his deathly state. He gives us opportunity, but He opens the heart of the sinner, and it is Him alone that makes the sinner come to life.
Thanks for the chat, Observer. I understand but have been trying to comprehend which I am quickly beginning to realize is an exercise in futility. Here is what is always in the back of my mind when I consider it all: We all have our pasts, for sure, but I was, hands down, one of the worst of the worst. Yes, others were even worse ,but I was right up there, competing with the worst of them. I am beyond grateful that I, of all people, was chosen by God Himself. Believing now that I had no part in Him choosing me, I wonder why. I could answer this when believing that I, in turn, chose Him, but if that's not the case, I can't figure out why He would choose me. I can't figure out why He would choose me over the kindly old grandmother, who by worldly standards, lived a stellar, saintly life. I can't figure out why grandma will be tormented for eternity while someone like me will be chillin' on a cloud. I could explain this when believing that we answer His call, but now...
Hey David, thanks for sharing the verses, but our Lord did not say to Nicodemus, in the future you must be born again after I give out the Holy Spirit. In fact He derided him for being a master in Israel and not understanding these things. Why would our Lord do that if He was referring to something that was presently impossible? Why would He twice command Him to do something that was not available until after His resurrection? You are still, my friend, distorting the English language. The direct object of the verses you quote in Ephesians is US, in Him is a prepositional phrase and not the receiver of the action. He chose US, predestined US, no matter how you slice it. Trying to understand your perspective, are you trying to saying that God did not chose people for salvation only the means of their sanctification? Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures (James 1:18) see also John 1:12-13 Are you saying there is no work of the Spirit in salvation prior to the resurrection? Thanks
Scripture is full of both truths. Man is dead and cannot nor does he desire to come to the Lord without God being the first cause. Just as we had nothing to do with our being born in the flesh, we also had nothing to do with being born again. That said: Scripture is full of man's responsibility to choose Christ and man will be held accountable for not choosing Christ. Let no one deny either truth in His Word.
"God's sovereign election and man's exercise of responsibility in choosing Jesus Christ seem opposite and irreconcilable. That is why so many, well-meaning Christians throughout the history of the church have floundered trying to reconcile them. Since the problem cannot be resolved by our finite minds, the result is always to compromise one truth in favor of the other or to weaken both by trying to take a position somewhere between them. We should let the antimony remain, believing both truths completely and leaving the harmonizing of them to God."
Lastly, define "free will" as used in scripture! Man can freely choose ONLY within the confines of his fallen nature. So is it truly FREE WILL? Depends on what man is desiring to choose.
Jim Posted: Romans 8 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
John, isn't this the verse that you had an epiphany on early one Sunday morning? I thought it looked familiar...you were very excited...is this the one?
Also, I have been following the thread but got buried in the vast amount of info. What is everyones problem with David? Is the argument about what me and Observer were talking about...God chooses us based on grace rather than us answering His call? Also, what's TULIP other than a flower? Forget it, I'll Google it.
David Preston wrote: 1.acts 16 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 2. Gods will can be broken.
1. Who provided the Jailor in Acts 16:30 with the "faith/knowledge" to seek salvation and reject his sinful life? Thus and only thus was he able to respond faithfully to Pauls teaching in verse 30.
You must stop excluding God from the equation David.
David Preston wrote: God deals with man differently even though mans spiritual condition doesn't change during covenants.
I'm glad you agree that sinners in the old have the same poor spiritual state as those in the new. So how does God deal with a sinner who is dead in trespasses and sins but by quickening. And we all know what quickening means. It matters nothing whether that sinner be born in the old or new covenant, he is still dead, and in the adamic nature.
David Preston wrote: Observer- go look up what "conscience" means. Eph. 1- 1.acts 16 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 2. Gods will can be broken.
Your ignorance beggars belief.
Couldn't answer the Corinthians passage could you?
Are you speaking of the one who purposes and works all things after the counsel of his own will? No, of course not because you're a stranger to him. You are no different to your fathers the Pharisees who had the devil for their father.
Your outlook on the bible is directly from the unbelieving Jews. How can this be? Oh, do let me guess. Of course you use their commentaries to teach you about Christianity.
JPW- answer "a." JohnUK- "many" does mean the elect. It is clear in scripture that "many" can mean "all." I have no issue with isa. 53. The Holy Ghost didn't seal anyone Pre-Calvary. The concept of being born again was not taught in the OT. God deals with man differently even though mans spiritual condition doesn't change during covenants. It seems John 7 has troubled you. In the OT they could have been filled and emptied look at Saul the Holy Spirit left him. Observer- go look up what "conscience" means. Eph. 1- 1.acts 16 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 2. Gods will can be broken.
Isaiah 53:8 KJV 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Atonement for God's people.
Isaiah 53:11 KJV 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Atonement for many, he bears their iniquities.
"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied." His cross-work shall be 100% effective, and his purpose fulfilled.
Isaiah 53:12 KJV 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Atonement for many - "he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors".
Romans 8 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Ephesians 1 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,-NASB
Ah, just because Calvin, usually, was Biblical, the idea of predestination was God's idea not Calvin's.
David Preston wrote: 1. Eph. 1- the "us" is "in him." You did not get " in him" until you did something and that was call upon Jesus Christ. 2. By the way you break Gods will everyday when you sin myself included.
1. Tell you what David, You get saved by your own will, - I'll stick to God's purpose and salvation through Christ alone. I'll give all the glory to God - Whilst you can keep a piece of the action.
David Preston wrote: Observer- 1 Cor. 2:14 says nothing about not being able to receive Jesus Christ. The "things of the Spirit of God" is not Jesus Christ..
As the saying goes, there's none as blind as won't see.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, HE SHALL TESTIFY OF ME.
Paul starts by speaking to the Corinthians of when he first came to them determined to preach Christ and him crucified. He goes on to make the case that he didn't use clever tactics, ploys, gimmicks but the message was in power. The Gospel is a revelation by the Spirit and the apostles spoke not with man's wisdom but by the wisdom that comes from the Spirit. The content of the gospel they taught (the things freely given to us of God) is revealed by the Spirit (who else can know?). But the natural man (unconverted) cannot receive this revelation of the things freely given to us (according to David Christ is NOT included in this! ) because it is foolishness to him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned etc.
Kid yourself all you like David, but you cannot see what should be plain to even a babe in Christ. I worry for you pal.