The first “atheist church” in the country is set to open in London, but critics say it’s a contradiction in terms.
Stand-up comedians Sanderson Jones and Pippa Evans, who are behind the ‘church’, say they like many aspects of religion but don’t believe in God.
But last year prominent atheist Richard Dawkins hit out at separate plans to build a £1 million “temple for atheists” in London, as a waste of money and a contradiction in terms.
Idaho wrote: Hey pastor mike, You've come back to run the gauntlet i see. Glad to see that you are still checking in on this site.
It's fun to have an alleged athiest here, trying to confirm to himself what he thinks he knows. Naturally, if he truly was all that confident, he wouldn't be here at all, would he?
Pastor Mike wrote: Why would God use oral traditions or even written accounts to communicate with humanity? Aren't there better, unambiguous, foolproof methods available for this important communication?
Mike, you are neglecting the best method possible of God communicating with mankind, namely, he came down to our sinful world himself, Immanuel - God with us - the Great Spirit who became Man, the Word made flesh...
Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
Here we have the Great Creator, Jesus Christ, who made all things, and who lived among men a perfect life, giving every proof of who he was, yet being rejected because men "loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil", yet still he loved and redeemed men by his blood, returning after his resurrection to the glory.
Pastor Mike wrote: You're forgetting a key detail: The Gospels were originally oral traditions which were only later committed to writing. They're not first hand accounts.
Luke 1:1,2 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses...
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 20:30-31 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life...
1John 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you...
2 Peter_1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
Pastor Mike wrote: You're forgetting a key detail: The Gospels were originally oral traditions which were only later committed to writing. They're not first hand accounts. ---
John UK wrote: you imagine that these Jewish men like Matthew "made up stories" to "make Jesus look good" when they knew that following that Man put them in a position of grave danger?
You're forgetting a key detail: The Gospels were originally oral traditions which were only later committed to writing. They're not first hand accounts. Furthermore, there are issues between them, such as the date and number of occurrences of temple cleansing.
However, let's step back and look at the big picture for a moment. Why would God use oral traditions or even written accounts to communicate with humanity? Aren't there better, unambiguous, foolproof methods available for this important communication? Yes there are!
I recently read the book Contact by Carl Sagan. Great book. Go out and read that book. In the story the main character discovers that the creator of the universe has embedded a message in mathematical constants such as the number Pi. Neat trick! How come the so-called real God of our universe can't pull of something like that?
If an impostor wanted to invent a fake religious text, I'd expect it to take the exact same form as the scriptures - transcribed, hand-me-down, spoken then written, human language, not verifiable.
Pastor Mike wrote: Well of course Jesus Christ won every argument in those stories. The Gospels were written by His followers! Do you think His followers are going to publish something that makes Him look bad? Try having the debate today and trust me things won't go so well for your side. Especially now that science has made so many wonderful discoveries. I could tie Jesus up in knots.
Pastor Mike wrote: Well of course Jesus Christ won every argument in those stories. The Gospels were written by His followers! Do you think His followers are going to publish something that makes him look bad? Try having the debate today and trust me things won't go so well for your side. Especially now that science has made so many wonderful discoveries. I could tie Jesus up in knots.
Mike, you imagine that these Jewish men like Matthew "made up stories" to "make Jesus look good" when they knew that following that Man put them in a position of grave danger? Indeed, his followers were crucified or put to death simply for claiming he was the Son of God. If they were deceivers in their stories, why put themselves in such a position?
As for "tying Jesus up in knots", note: Revelation 6:15-17 KJV 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
John UK wrote: I suggest you read the gospels and observe the religious worldlings who tried to debate The Incarnate God, Jesus Christ. The puny little men lost the debate every time.
Well of course Jesus Christ won every argument in those stories. The Gospels were written by His followers! Do you think His followers are going to publish something that makes Him look bad? Try having the debate today and trust me things won't go so well for your side. Especially now that science has made so many wonderful discoveries. I could tie Jesus up in knots.
Pastor Mike wrote: Yes, I know. I have a master's degree in divinity from a respected seminary.
If you were to debate with me, you'd lose. You don't have a case. I pity the man who thinks he can debate me.
Where is your evidence for evolution? The missing link is still missing, there are no signs of anything evolving since the days when Darwin created his fictitious theory. Evolution has NO scientific evidence to back it up. The big bang theory has no witnesses, no proof. Our earth and universe abound with design, order and complexities that could not have happened if we came from some cosmic chaos. The god of science has one consistency, it is always changing. May God open your eyes to His eternal truth before it is everlastingly too late.
Pastor Mike wrote: 1. Yes, I know. I have a master's degree in divinity from a respected seminary.
2. If you were to debate with me, you'd lose. You don't have a case. I pity the man who thinks he can debate me.
1. Yes, that would explain your unbelief.
2. But Mike, I don't need to have "a case". And I certainly do not need to debate with worldlings. But if you are concerned about debate, I suggest you read the gospels and observe the religious worldlings who tried to debate The Incarnate God, Jesus Christ. The puny little men lost the debate every time. I say, every time. The important thing is to listen to the means God has chosen to communicate with humankind in these last days, namely, by his Son. Hearken to him, and observe his words. See how he loves, see how he lives, see how he dies, see how he rises again, see how he ascended into heaven, see how he made captivity captive and gave gifts to men.
I recommend forgetting all that you learned at seminary and read and study the New Testament, for it is by the word of God that he chooses to bring us to new birth, repentance of sin, and faith in his Son.
Realise that you are nothing, that you may become something in this world.
Pastor Mike wrote: The heavens declare the nonexistence of God; and the firmament shows the handywork of evolution.
Did you know that the God you say you do not believe in actually loves sinful and unbelieving humankind? And that he has made a way of reconciliation with himself? Of course you find it difficult to relate to this, because it necessitates a gracious act of God to subdue our sinful and unbelieving hearts and open our eyes to the truth.
But the wonderful thing is that in the gospel, this is exactly what he does, out of kindness and grace towards his enemies, those who even reject his existence.
Personally I don't make use of apologetics, because I hold to the biblical principle that the "preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that perish; but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God".
Therefore Mike, I will not debate points with you, but freely give to you the gospel, as I have done in the past. If you regard the substitutionary sacrifice of the cross, where Christ died to "save sinners", as foolishness, then you are perishing for sure - you are a lost soul.
But "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".
Science is the assertion that the universe is best understood through evidence from careful observation and experimentation. Faith is the assertion that the universe is best known not through evidence but through information revealed by an authority. There are many faith-based explanations for the universe and many such authorities; some of these are believed by people today while others have gone extinct.
If evidence is not necessity for understanding, how is one to tell which faith-based explanation is correct? I would assert that without the need for evidence all communication eventually breaks down and the only way for those of different faiths to reconcile is physical violence.
John UK wrote: The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
The heavens declare the nonexistence of God; and the firmament shows the handywork of evolution.
Pastor Mike wrote: The reason atheists are building churches
You atheists really hate the TRUTH don't you pester. Under the dominion of sin you cannot perceive truth or light.
Bible states your future is... "8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Rev 21.
Atheists belong to Satan... "14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with BELIAL? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 2Cor 6.
Bible on those who do not hold the doctrine of Christ is... "10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." 2John
Psalms 19:1-6 KJV 1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
If you ever come to faith in Jesus Christ the Lord, these verses will become most wonderful to you, and you will be amazed that you never saw it before.
The creativity of God is most wonderful. Just look around you at the living beings, with their varied colours and detail, the various types of trees and plants, the complexity of the human body, and mans' ability to reason.
The alternative to creation by a creator is really not an alternative at all.
the truth is wrote: If you cannot read the "evidence" in Scripture it is because God has not picked you and you are reprobate on your way to hell.
My friends, this is what's known as an ad hominem argument, where you ignore the issue and go after somebody personally.
Oh wait, it all makes sense now! The reason atheists are building churches is because they know deep down these really are the last days and they need a place to stockpile weapons for their fight against the Lord when He returns. *Laughing out loud*
Jason Lisle | 6/1/2005
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