Pope cancels trip to Rome university after protests
Pope Benedict XVI has canceled his visit to Rome's secular La Sapienza university following a protest letter signed by 67 of 4,500 professors and complaints by thousands of students that he devalues science.
But the Vatican says the pope's views were distorted and taken out of historic context and that his speech will still be sent to the university even though the pontiff will not deliver it.
"It was considered opportune to skip the event," Vatican sources told the Associated Press.
Such a cancellation of a scheduled papal event is extremely rare, and the few times it has happened in recent decades, the Vatican cited security concerns. When news of the cancellation reached the campus on Tuesday, students in a political sciences hall broke into applause....
Truth Seeker wrote: In case you haven't noticed, I agree with you (in part). I think that they worship the one true God (the God of Abraham and of Isaac) but like the Bible says and you remind, He must be worshipped in spirit and in truth; and that "no one comes to the Father" except through his Son Jesus Christ. But there is no denying that they worship the same God. But if you're going to start assuming that manner of worship and belief change the identity of God, then you will have to assert that the God you worship is different than the God who Augustine worshipped, Calvin worshipped, Luther worshipped, etc. Different even than other protestants who believe in different approaches to worship and have a different theology than you do. Then, basically, you are claiming that only you and your own understanding of God are the correct one, and anyone outside of it worships a false God. Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the God of Abraham, but not with the same level of understanding, truth, etc. Just because they worship the correct God, doesn't mean they worship him correctly. That is what the Catechism asserts.
1. No, I didn't notice. 2. This is quite a jump. 3. What Catechism? RCC? 4. No worship without understanding.
In case you haven't noticed, I agree with you (in part). I think that they worship the one true God (the God of Abraham and of Isaac) but like the Bible says and you remind, He must be worshipped in spirit and in truth; and that "no one comes to the Father" except through his Son Jesus Christ.
But there is no denying that they worship the same God. But if you're going to start assuming that manner of worship and belief change the identity of God, then you will have to assert that the God you worship is different than the God who Augustine worshipped, Calvin worshipped, Luther worshipped, etc. Different even than other protestants who believe in different approaches to worship and have a different theology than you do. Then, basically, you are claiming that only you and your own understanding of God are the correct one, and anyone outside of it worships a false God.
Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the God of Abraham, but not with the same level of understanding, truth, etc. Just because they worship the correct God, doesn't mean they worship him correctly. That is what the Catechism asserts.
Truth Seeker wrote: Actually, you present the perfect point here. The one I've been trying to make, though Michael and others will not listen, and neither will they read the rest of the section of the Catechism they took out of context. "No one can come to the Father but by me..." You see, Jews and Muslims do worship the same God, the God of Abraham, but as Christians, we have the key to truth: because we can come before the Father in a way that these other systems cannot, and as long as they deny Christ, will not be able. They worship the same God, but not in the fullness of revelation that we have as Christians. Thank you Borill for pointing that out. However, it's not a different God, it's a different approach: that's the problem. We must worship God as he reveals to us, not offering strange fire.
This is an equivocal and fallacious argument. If God is the truth, how can He be the same God when the one true God of scripture "must be worshipped in Spirit and Truth", and they do not have the truth as he is revealed in Jesus Christ? Apart from Christ, they worship a god of their imagination which is no god at all.
Keep Seeking! Jesus Christ is the narrow gate; there is no other.
R. K. Borill wrote: With this last statement, you contradict the Word of God. Hear the logic deduced from the words of Christ: Major Premise "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." Jn. 14:6 Minor Premise The Jews deny this. The Muslims deny this. Logical Conclusion The Jews and Muslims both worship another God which is not another.
Actually, you present the perfect point here. The one I've been trying to make, though Michael and others will not listen, and neither will they read the rest of the section of the Catechism they took out of context.
"No one can come to the Father but by me..."
You see, Jews and Muslims do worship the same God, the God of Abraham, but as Christians, we have the key to truth: because we can come before the Father in a way that these other systems cannot, and as long as they deny Christ, will not be able.
They worship the same God, but not in the fullness of revelation that we have as Christians.
Thank you Borill for pointing that out. However, it's not a different God, it's a different approach: that's the problem.
We must worship God as he reveals to us, not offering strange fire.
Lance Eccles wrote: Interesting development. The Jewish God is not God? So you reject the Old Testament. Are all those OT quotes in the NT just deceitfulness? And Michael, Mohammed didn't get his revelation from Allah, he got it from himself. That's why it's so inconsistent and contradictory.
Lance Your opinion that Mohammed got his revelation of Allah from himself would still mean Allah is a false god and your Catechism if it was according to Truth should have exposed Allah as a false god, a very false god indeed instead of telling sincer Catholic people they and the Muslims both worship the same God, unless they both worship the same false god.
Lance Eccles wrote: but what makes this God different from the one the Christians and Jews worship?
Because God revealed Himself in His Word!! Allah has no son. He cannot be known by His followers, and they have absolutely no assurance of eternal life. You don't understand that there can be absolutely NO CONTRADICTION in anything that is about God, if there is contradiction then one or the other is a LIE. ALLAH IS NOT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE. And neither is the JEWISH GOD, nor the ROMAN CATHOLICS GOD. When you have a view of God that is inconsistent with His written Word, you have A FALSE GOD.
Lance Eccles wrote: .... but what makes this God (Allah) different from the one the Christians and Jews worship?
Lance Just where did Mohammed get his revelation of Allah? Don't you remember from a supernatural being who claimed to be the angel Gabriel
btw the Angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would conceive in her womb a child, the Son of God...Mohammed's Gabriel denounced the idea that God has a Son.
What to take a guess what kind of angel Mohammed's Gabriel is?
And if Muslims follow the teachings of this kind of angel who are they following? God or Satan.
BTW It makes me consider the Roman Catholic Religion is famous for following the teachings of various apparitions who make it out that Jesus and his shed blood aren't good enough to save sinners over what God Himself says in Scripture. Hmmm could it be that sincere Catholic people are actually following the teachings of the same kind of "angels" sincere mr mohammed was?
Lance Eccles wrote: Michael, it's not my desire to defend Islam, but your view doesn't make sense to me. The Muslims worship the one God (Allah), who is omnipotent and created everything. They know less about Him than Christians do, and have some wrong ideas about him, but what makes this God different from the one the Christians and Jews worship? If Christians, Jews and Muslims say there is only one omnipotent God, it must be the same one.
With this last statement, you contradict the Word of God. Hear the logic deduced from the words of Christ:
Major Premise "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." Jn. 14:6
Minor Premise The Jews deny this. The Muslims deny this.
Logical Conclusion The Jews and Muslims both worship another God which is not another.
Since you have side step honest discussion let me share a little story I've written for you who are devoted to Catholicism.
“a story”
We don’t care if you were blind! Who are you to think you know more than the great teachers? You have never even read them!
And you think God has spoken to you?
This preacher of yours must be of the devil! Don’t you know he teaches, ‘I did not come to bring peace on earth, but a sword?’
Don’t you know Satan can do miracles too? Why! He must have healed you with the devil’s power.
Who does he think he is to say, that we are going to hell! Our God would never say that our Great Traditions are wrong! We believe in God more than He does. We believe the Scriptures and Tradition.
Get out! We don’t want your kind here! Thinking to themselves, ‘We can hardly wait until we get rid of this itinerant preacher from Nazareth.
"this story has a very horrible ending for those who held to Scripture and Tradition, and would not repent."
What if someone doesn't acknowledge the creator but gets saved later on-is he included in the plan of salvation? I would venture to say that if you three would ask you bishops in your locality you would surely get three different answers. I have read the catechism and there are some bothersome things in this particular section but Michael definitely has a point if you would listen to what he is saying(esp. the beginning phrase"Included in the plan of salvation..."). Do the writers of this catechism believe that muslims can be saved simply by claiming to believe in a creator God?
Michael, it's not my desire to defend Islam, but your view doesn't make sense to me.
The Muslims worship the one God (Allah), who is omnipotent and created everything. They know less about Him than Christians do, and have some wrong ideas about him, but what makes this God different from the one the Christians and Jews worship?
If Christians, Jews and Muslims say there is only one omnipotent God, it must be the same one.
Michael, I have to ask if you've read the parts of the Catechism I just asked you to. You would have to be ridiculously ignorant of world religions to say that the God of the Jews and the Christians is not also the God that Muslims choose to worship (i.e. the God of Abraham). However, like the Mormons, Muslims reject many tenets of the Christian / Jewish traditions and are thereby not in the fullness of truth. The Catechism makes this clear, if you would actually read it.
I'm sorry if I'm not "proving it from Scripture here." but you're not asking me what the Bible says, you're asking me what the RCC says about Muslims. I never said that their religion is correct. Neither did the Catholic Church. READ THE CATECHISM ALREADY! Until you do, and have some kind of decent understanding of it (write me an essay 500 characters or less) I will not bother to answer you.
The kind of ranting that you do, without any knowledge, is destructive to the unity of the Christian Church that Christ prayed for. Remember that "Love hopes all things, love believes all things." By which I mean to suggest that you should hope the best when talking to Catholics, try to actually understand what they are saying, and maybe you'll get somewhere.
Lance If Allah is a false god, and Allah the god of the demon possessed murderous pedophile known as Mohammed is very much a false god would it not be to call Allah the Creator is a lie?
And those who worship Allah are not worshipping the Creator at all.
Certainly the Apostle Peter wouldn't have had any problem understanding this would he, after all he was raised a Jew and knew the Creator, the Only True and Living God was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and if some "prophet" came along later claiming to worship the God of Abraham, Ishmael and Mohammed he would be a very false prophet indeed with a very false god.
But your Catechism says Catholics and Muslims worship the same god imagine that, something is serious wrong here Lance.
Lone Ranger No, the wording of the Catechism isn't unclear it is seriously wrong because it is not according to truth. Muslims don't acknowledge the Creator but their false god Allah, yes they profess faith in the God of Abraham but it is a lie and therefore it is very wrong to give them the least ceredibility.
With this in mind it is truly inconceiveable to think any man of God would ever claim to worship the same god as the Muslims but this is exactly what the Catechism says.
Hi Michael. As for the Muslims, I think the wording in the Catechism is a little unclear. If it means God will save them upon faith in Jesus as Son of God and Lord and Savior, I agree. If it means Muslims will be saved without such faith and simply believe Jesus is a prophet of many and not the divine Son, then I would disagree. The Bible says there is salvation in no other and by no other name. The Bible says to believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. If Muslims do not confess the lorship of Christ, they will not be partakers of salvation.
Michael Hranek wrote: I would have to think there is something horribly amiss with Offical Roman Catholic teaching from its very core if they cannot get it right on who God truly is and who He isn't.
What happened to the "Lone Ranger"? What happened to "Truth Seeker"?
Especially Truth Seeker? Can't they prove offical Catholic doctrine is spont on from the Scriptures like "Truth Seeker" claims?
I would have to think there is something horribly amiss with Offical Roman Catholic teaching from its very core if they cannot get it right on who God truly is and who He isn't.
From Catechism of the Catholic Church Officially Approved by Pope John Paul II
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
Dr. Alan Cairns | 8/3/2009
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