While stressing that the discussion between Calvinists and non-Calvinists in the Southern Baptist Convention is a family matter, speakers at the 2013 John 3:16 Conference outlined the differences between the two views and what they believe to be the issues hindering unity among Southern Baptists.
Frank Cox, pastor of North Metro Baptist Church in Lawrenceville, Ga., which hosted the conference on March 21-22, told attendees that the event would help them "engage in the conversation going on across the nation and the Southern Baptist Convention."
Jerry Vines, pastor emeritus of First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Fla., opened the conference by saying it was not about anger or fighting anyone over these issues....
Is a cloudite someone who follows David Cloud and get his understanding about the doctrines of grace only from Clouds website where David Cloud believes he has the greater understanding, though I do appreciate that Cloud likes Spurgeon (but probably because he can't use C H S as a straw man when his preaching was so abundantly blessed!)
Michael Hranek wrote: SteveR Stop! right there. I am aware of Jacob Arminius AND EVEN MORE SO of how his name has been twisted into a pejorative by some Calvinists/Reformed. As to Israel not being the Church and the Church not being Israel, it simply cannot be, unless God be a liar, for He made covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and I have it on good authority that He keeps His word and makes it very good. AND As gently honestly and respectfully as I might will ultimately prove them liars who suppress the knowledge of the Truth and claim to have replaced Israel. Judgment Day - Israel, Islam and the Nations by Dave Hunt is a good book takeing us to the Scriptures, what God Himself says NOT to what experts in religion like Popes have imagined, addressing the matter.
Thats only one way Hunt has beguiled you. You understand neither the PROMISE made to Abraham, his 'seed,' or the distiction of the ONLY Bride of Christ....The Church
Observer wrote: G'morning bro! Excuse my ignorance, BUT, what's a Cloudite? And where does he stand theologically?
Ah, good morning brother!
I think David Cloud is a fair representative of many fundamental Baptist churches in America. His eternal security doctrine is a P, but his other doctrines are arminist, so it is a bit of mix and match, certainly not arminist, because 20% tulip.
I hope I have that correct, or I'll be inundated with complaints, and people asking if I've seen a catfish lately.
Several years ago I listened to a series of sermons by David Cloud on the Bible Version Issue, and at the time I found them very helpful.
I am aware of Jacob Arminius AND EVEN MORE SO of how his name has been twisted into a pejorative by some Calvinists/Reformed.
As to Israel not being the Church and the Church not being Israel, it simply cannot be, unless God be a liar, for He made covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and I have it on good authority that He keeps His word and makes it very good.
AND As gently honestly and respectfully as I might will ultimately prove them liars who suppress the knowledge of the Truth and claim to have replaced Israel.
Now if we might honestly discuss how Israel in not the Chruch and the Church is not Israel,
1)Arminian is not a perjorative, it is a name derived from a founder of the Dutch Remonstrandt Movement Jacobus Arminius. Arminius articulated his arugments well, unlike your attempts to distance yourself from him so I have no clue why you deride the term. Its the heresy we belittle, not the non existent feebleness of the Professor. Calvinist can be considered a negative term as all of his acts & those of the Courts in Geneva are associated with Reformed Theology. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
2) The Church has always been the Israel of God. The Jerusalem saved from bondage
Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Hi Lisa, I wish you would have taken my posts to heart; the ones about being new to the boards, what to expect, and about being ready to possibly make some changes in theology if anything can be proven Biblically. I found that I was wrong on several things but nobody could tell me different at first; I became combative at times because I had been taught different. People rarely post opinions here...just Biblical fact. I have been set straight on several things thanks to these people, yes, even SteveR has had a hand in it. Don't get the wrong impression because so many seem to be coming against you because they are really only trying to instruct. Remember what I said about giving it time to get used to the different personalities. Nobody is against you, rather, they are all for you.
I think you're great and hope you will stick around. You just came onto the board like gangbusters with some pretty heavy commentary... : )
CV wrote: Arminians talk about Israel as the chosen (the elect) of God.
CV As humbly and respectfully as I might in our present time the issue is often something far different than the things you are writting.
Arminian is a pejorative used by some Calvinist/Reformed to denigrate and malign non-Calvinists, it is similar to calling a white man a racist the guilt and condemnation is the accusation not in actual evidence. And it often has the chilling effect of shutting down honest rational thinking in those using it, along with sometimes filling the accusers with pride that they are so right, an even rage if someone dares to expose their self-righteousness and hypocrisy.
An honest humble reading of John 3:16 ought to cause all of us to fall on our faces at the feet of Jesus Christ in worship for His mercy and grace.
And I believe it is safe to say some who have been maligned as Arminian and some calling themselves Calvinists have done just that.
Now if we might honestly discuss how Israel in not the Chruch and the Church is not Israel, and hasn't replace Israel either btw it would be good that we would learn from God and His word NOT from the opinions and traditions of religious experts who tell God what His word means.
"If you are not lost, what do you want with a Saviour? Should the shepherd go after those who never went astray? Why should the woman sweep her house for the bits of money that were never out of her purse? No, the medicine is for the diseased; the quickening is for the dead; the pardon is for the guilty; liberation is for those who are bound: the opening of eyes is for those who are blind. How can the Saviour, and His death upon the cross, and the gospel of pardon, be accounted for, unless it be upon the supposition that men are guilty and worthy of condemnation? The sinner is the gospel's reason for existence. You, my friend, to whom this word now comes, if you are undeserving, ill-deserving, hell-deserving, you are the sort of man for whom the gospel is ordained, and arranged, and proclaimed. God justifieth the ungodly." CHS All Of Grace
Arminians talk about Israel as the chosen (the elect) of God. But the ‚Äúelection‚ÄĚ they speak of is these people, and by chance ONLY these people in the entire world that exercised faith in God. It is a people who, through their faith, chose God. This is not the election by God the bible speaks of. Arminian sovereignty is, when Gods sovereignty meets man‚Äôs sovereignty, man has the final decision. Man chooses God looses.
Arminians use a lot of biblical terms because these are in the bible so they are stuck. But a clear and simple articulation of their beliefs is embarrassing so they burry it behind a lot of verbiage and scripture quoting. I dare them to tell me that their "election" is not - man choosing God!
Arminian theology cannot accommodate many of the terms found in the bible. But they are stuck because it's there. So they define it out of existence. They negate its meaning. When man‚Äôs decision trumps God's, I don‚Äôt care what you call this, but this is NOT sovereignty!
Instead of throwing invectives at Calvin, it would help they presented a clear defence of their beliefs.
Titus 2 wrote: Lisa, perhaps you are out of Gods order. As it is written: But I suffer not a woman to teach,nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1Timothy 2:12. Could be the reason for disharmony on this thread.
Well isn't that just peachy.
I convince Lisa she has every right to comment on this forum and someone comes along and hammers her with a perversion of scripture. It's been several years since anyone pulled that stunt..... Mark B. Lawless, I believe it was; an insecure, militant, in your face, hyper-fundy nobody.
A discussion forum is not a church. Furthermore, the founder of this site is (I believe) Reformed Presbyterian so if he believed women discussing theology or whatever was a violation of the pastoral letters and the will of God; surely SermonAudio would be a "men's only" discussion forum. But, its not so get over it.
I'm real confused, and I hope you can help me here.
4/14/13 1:01 PM
"....I gave you good biblical evidence that god has not replaced israel with the church- that spiritual Israel is a joining of Jew and gentile through Christ...."
Question to you: What is the 'church' if not the 'spiritual Israel'? And if you admit this, are ya saying that God will still restore the unbelieving nation of Israel to its previous favored status?
After quoting extensively from Scripture, Helps wrote:
4/13/13 3:13 PM
"...Believing Jews and Gentiles are the new Holy Nation, the Israel of God."
Now maybe I'm being real dense here, but can ya tell me how this differs from what you maintain and why you were so heavy on the man?
If you agree with Jim's understanding then you must be a dispensationalist. Are you? And if so, did you come to this position by just reading your Bible? If so, I'd be real interested to know what thought processes lead you there and what sort of dispensationalism you hold to. Maybe your Bible has Dispy notes?
Lisa, perhaps you are out of Gods order. As it is written: But I suffer not a woman to teach,nor to usurp authority over the man,but to be in silence. 1Timothy 2:12. Could be the reason for disharmony on this thread.