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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  12/21/2014
SUNDAY, JUL 13, 2014  |  30 comments
Former Archbishop of Canterbury: 'Why I support assisted suicide'

A former Archbishop of Canterbury has come out in support of assisted dying.

The change of mind by Lord Carey of Clifton just days before a crucial parliamentary vote on the issue is particularly significant because he was regarded as a supporter of the conservative evangelical wing of the Church of England, which is fiercely opposed.

Lord Carey said tonight that he now supports helping some terminally ill patients to die.


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 30 user comment(s)
News Item7/16/14 3:22 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Logger wrote:
If GOD does 'decide' how long our life should be then the archbishop and those who support "assisted dying" are breaking the law of GOD.
If GOD doesn't 'decide' how long our life should be then the archbishop and those who support "assisted dying" are still breaking the law of GOD.

Besides which, if you say that those who received "assisted dying" died prematurely, where then is God's absolute sovereignty over our life and death? Once again, it becomes a nonsense doctrine. Did martyr Stephen die prematurely, that is, before God had "decided" he should die? Did his murderers somehow catch God out or unawares?

Let us suppose you are a missionary in a foreign country. Can you trust God fully that none will take away your life so long as you have work to do for the Lord? Or do you believe that puny man can take your life with impunity, at any time, anywhere, anyplace?

30

News Item7/16/14 2:55 PM
Logger  Find all comments by Logger
John UK wrote:
my yes/no question
Westminster Confession chap 3:-
1. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.c

a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17. • b. James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5. • c. Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,a yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.b

a. 1 Sam 23:11-12; Mat 11:21, 23; Acts 15:18. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

29

News Item7/16/14 8:54 AM
Strat  Find all comments by Strat
The fact is many who call themselves Christians love this world and this life and will do,say and subject themselves to anything or anyone to keep it.

They sing songs about heaven and about being a pilgrim and "just passing through" but when it comes time to go they wail and howl and run to and fro just like the unbeleivers do.

They may be ready to go at 90 or so but when God calls them at a such a time that in their estimation is "early" they rebel just like the unbeleivers do.

Death is the moment of truth,the bible reading,praying and church going and good deed doing is all over,or if you have not done those things and instead filled your life with unbeleiving foolishness then your reward awaits you..in the next few moments you will see your eternity.

28

News Item7/16/14 1:33 AM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
John MacArthur has a littlea little commentary about suicide. It might give you a different slant, or at least some of you on the topic. Can one who commits suicide be saved?
27

News Item7/15/14 5:29 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Logger wrote:
John. You musn't blame GOD for sin.
You dare not answer my yes/no question, so instead produce a strawman out of the hat to divert attention away from the premise.

Okay, let's go a different route. Would you be happy to say that all things occur as a result of God's active or passive will? If yes, then God permits sin in the world, things which break his laws, but only in a passive sense. He does not actively will murder, but passively allows it. The Lord Jesus Christ made this clear at his trial when he said they had no power over him at all except that which his Father gave them.

Now if God sovereignly and actively chooses that a man's life is to end at 100 years, but man assists his death at 98 years, then your theory of God's sovereignty over his time of departure becomes a nonsense. Does puny man have such power to rearrange history at a whim?

You really need to declare on this, or you will inevitably confuse both yourself and others with your contradictions.

Take prophecy as another example. Do you think it possible or conceivable that the Lord Jesus could have been born anywhere apart from Bethlehem?

26

News Item7/15/14 4:45 PM
Logger  Find all comments by Logger
John UK wrote:
Is God sovereign over the date and manner of death? If you say, "yes" then it was God's predetermining that someone died of an assisted killing. If "no", then the assisted killing was outside of God's purposes and overruling.
John. You musn't blame GOD for sin.
25

News Item7/15/14 2:59 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Logger wrote:
Arminian....
Yes, that's your usual form of argument, but it convinces no-one and is wasting your time and the time of others. We need to read something a bit better than that.

And you've not understood my point, have you? Why not just ask me to rephrase?

We begin with the sovereignty of God. Is God sovereign over the date and manner of death? If you say, "yes" then it was God's predetermining that someone died of an assisted killing. If "no", then the assisted killing was outside of God's purposes and overruling.

I realise this might make your head spin, and drive you to the WCF for answers, and I wish you well as you seek a better explanation than the one you have given.

24

News Item7/15/14 2:39 PM
Logger  Find all comments by Logger
John UK wrote:
(1) if it cannot be changed by man
(2) your diet.
(3) Another thing is improvements in medicals. Check out the average lifespan in the 1800's
(1) Aaahh the olde Arminian influence creeps in to make its mark again. Well done John, Jacob would be proud of you. So the sin of murder is approved by GOD is it? When GOD commanded "Thou shalt not kill" - HE was only kidding, that what you mean John?
(2) Does that come under the heading of "assisted dying"??? If you don't stick to John's perfect diet God will not be responsible??? And you will die. I Don't believe you John.
Have you noticed John that "assisted dying" is a rich man's game? If you go to poor countries such as Romania they don't need any "assistance" - They die early anyway. (That's why England has so many Romanian immigrants)
(3) Medical??? First I can go into a graveyard and find many 80 year old folks from the 19th century. Second There are children dying today. Remember what the topic is John - "ASSISTED DYING" - Now do you want to kill somebody? Even when they are suffering in pain there can be care program's for them. Just because somebody is suffering there is no need to whip out your gun John. Some Christians obey the Ten Commandments.
23

News Item7/15/14 1:35 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Logger wrote:
No I am not!
The person killed by the "doctor" (assisted dying) for example could live longer by the grace of GOD.
The end of that life has been brought forward by man's sinful decision.
"Assisted murder" (not about the sick person - But about the killers) is against the law of GOD.
Sure, which just goes to show that God has not set sovereignly the day of death, as if it cannot be changed by man. I hope you can see the point I'm making.

Another thing that can affect the date of death is your diet.

Another thing is improvements in medicals. Check out the average lifespan in the 1800's, the 1900's, and now in the 2000's. It has increased each time. For example, why is the lifespan in Africa much less (even by half) than that in western nations?

So as far as I'm concerned, you try to put forward two conflicting beliefs. It reminds me very much of hyperCalvinism.

But then, you knew I'd say that.

22

News Item7/15/14 10:05 AM
Logger  Find all comments by Logger
Mike wrote:
What if the reason you are alive is you are hooked up to tubes? Which is against God, to be hooked up, or to be disconnected from the tubes?
We are talking about "assisted dying" which doesn't really relate to the tube example.
However man keeping someone alive by technology is ridiculous and pointless. Again we see man in his emotional weakness not trusting in GOD and expecting his science to promote better life on earth. There was a case in a hospital near me where a comatose woman was kept alive on a machine for two years and then she died. What does that accomplish?
Interesting that these same people kill the innocent child/life in the womb without much sympathy, but try to keep the 'dead' alive by artificial means.

_________________________

John UK wrote:
Because you are saying two contradictory things.
No I am not!
The person killed by the "doctor" (assisted dying) for example could live longer by the grace of GOD.
The end of that life has been brought forward by man's sinful decision.
"Assisted murder" (not about the sick person - But about the killers) is against the law of GOD.

____________________

Strat.
You really must learn to trust in GOD.

21

News Item7/15/14 9:21 AM
Strat  Find all comments by Strat
Mike wrote:
What if the reason you are alive is you are hooked up to tubes? Which is against God, to be hooked up, or to be disconnected from the tubes?
It is doubtful you will get an answer,he uses the word "naturally" yet tubes are not natural....I suspect he/she is one of those who would prolong a person's misery and then pat themselves on the back for being an excellent "Christian"

Many diseases would take a person mercifully soon....but the upright do gooders won't have any of that,they will hook you up,pump you up and prop you up until they can squeeze the last bit of suffering from you.

I am a believer that everyone should get to live out the standards they apply to others should they face similar circumstances....then everyone can see what a mighty man/woman of God they truely are.

20

News Item7/15/14 6:31 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Hey Mike...good point about it never putting us behind in any perceivable way. I don't use the metric system, but would use it for accuracies sake. For now though, I'm fine with "close enough"
I just feel bad for John and wanted to throw him a bone. I hate that he still has to use a bucket to milk his bossies, turn a crank to power a light bulb, and push around his haywagon with square wheels.
19

News Item7/14/14 4:24 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Logger writes: "GOD is in complete sovereign charge of our life here on earth from beginning to end, from conception to death. Therefore if the archbishop or a doctor or a politician or anybody else takes that life before it ends naturally, then murder as per the law of GOD has been committed and they are culpable."

Now Logger, I can understand most posts written on these threads, but this one has me baffled.

Why?

Because you are saying two contradictory things.

18

News Item7/14/14 3:48 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Logger wrote:
---
GOD said "Thou shalt not kill"
GOD creates life and is in complete control over life - in effect life belongs to GOD. There are two kinds of life on earth = One is life in Christ that is with GOD. = Two is life without Christ and thus without GOD.
As with death = There is two kinds of death - One is in Christ - the other is without Christ.
GOD provides life it is not for us to choose and seek death by our own hand or another's. That is to reject GOD.
This fallen world prefers darkness and sin. Whereas the 'suffering' saint should trust only in GOD.
What if the reason you are alive is you are hooked up to tubes? Which is against God, to be hooked up, or to be disconnected from the tubes?
17

News Item7/14/14 3:05 PM
Logger  Find all comments by Logger
Strat wrote:
Who said he doesn't decide ?
If GOD does 'decide' how long our life should be then the archbishop and those who support "assisted dying" are breaking the law of GOD.
Personally I believe that Jesus point about the sparrow testifies to the fact that GOD is in complete sovereign charge of our life here on earth from beginning to end, from conception to death. Therefore if the archbishop or a doctor or a politician or anybody else takes that life before it ends naturally, then murder as per the law of GOD has been committed and they are culpable.
These people may think by human emotions that they are doing the person a big favour but they are under the dominion of sin.
GOD said "Thou shalt not kill"

GOD creates life and is in complete control over life - in effect life belongs to GOD. There are two kinds of life on earth = One is life in Christ that is with GOD. = Two is life without Christ and thus without GOD.
As with death = There is two kinds of death - One is in Christ - the other is without Christ.
GOD provides life it is not for us to choose and seek death by our own hand or another's. That is to reject GOD.
This fallen world prefers darkness and sin. Whereas the 'suffering' saint should trust only in GOD.

16

News Item7/14/14 2:27 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Christopher000 wrote:
Yeah, that's one thing that you all have on us, John...use of the metric system. I'm not sure why we never adopted it considering its accuracy to the antiquated inch, cm, mm system.
---
There are many Americans agree that our system is antiquated , Christopher. Funny how it never put us behind, though. Something I could never figure out. If it's 10 miles to town, how would it be better if it be called 16.09344 km? Is a 5 pound bag of sugar more easily understood if it is weighed at 2.26796 kilograms? I used to argue with a workmate who invariable said "It's simpler, you can divide everything by 10." I told him nothing in the real world works that way. Real life situations do not conveniently line up in divisible by 10 units, nor is life a math class. He wasn't convinced, sorry to say.
15

News Item7/14/14 7:36 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Christopher000 wrote:
Yeah, that's one thing that you all have on us, John...use of the metric system. I'm not sure why we never adopted it considering its accuracy to the antiquated inch, cm, mm system.
Don't get too excited though, that's the only thing I can think of that.you have on us. Wait until the telephone reaches your island. No more cans and strings. You'll be able to talk to people from far away...it's pretty incredible. There have been so many technological advancements that it would blow your mind if I were to tell you. For example, there is a machine that uses electricty to blow a powerful stream of air that will dry your hair quickly after a shower. There is also, well...maybe that's enough for now. I'll let your imagination run wild with that one for a while. Mind blown?
Hey I'm quite up on all this Christopher. I got a carrot juicer from California called "The Champion", and a Penn 975CS multiplier reel from America which is built like a tank. Quality goods!

Actually in the UK we use a mixture of metric and imperial. For example, picture frames are still marked in inches or "A" sizes.

14

News Item7/14/14 7:20 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Yeah, that's one thing that you all have on us, John...use of the metric system. I'm not sure why we never adopted it considering its accuracy to the antiquated inch, cm, mm system.
Don't get too excited though, that's the only thing I can think of that.you have on us. Wait until the telephone reaches your island. No more cans and strings. You'll be able to talk to people from far away...it's pretty incredible. There have been so many technological advancements that it would blow your mind if I were to tell you. For example, there is a machine that uses electricty to blow a powerful stream of air that will dry your hair quickly after a shower. There is also, well...maybe that's enough for now. I'll let your imagination run wild with that one for a while. Mind blown?
13

News Item7/14/14 7:01 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Christopher000 wrote:
Give them an inch, and, well...you know the rest.
Mornin' Christopher.

Europe's "give them 25.4mm and they take a kilometre" doesn't quite ring, so I'm glad to see America sticking to the old standard.

12

News Item7/14/14 6:53 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Good points, Thornside. Give the an inch, and, well...you know the rest. Sodomy, just a short time ago, was considered a bonafide mental illness and abhorred by the very same society that now embraces, and vehemently defends it. What was considered deviant, immoral, and disgusting, is now being glamorized and promoted as a cool lifestyle. I worry about what's next as well because all the supporters of whatever group needs is the same inch that the sodomites were given, and now look...even so called Christians are showing their support, preaching from the pulpits, and marrying. How far and how fast this nation is falling. Boy.

Whywereour...I remember Hoopers story well. What many of the martyrs endured at the hand of the Roman church was just astonishing. Considering todays progressive Christian, I wonder how many would die rather than deny God's Word.

11
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