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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  10/25/2014
Choice News TUESDAY, APR 1, 2014  |  67 comments  |  1 commentary
51% of US Adults Say Church Is Not Important

What helps you grow in your faith? The Barna Group, a Christian polling organization, asked American adults that question. They listed prayer, family, friends, reading the Bible, even having children. But going to church did not crack the top-10 list.

Half of us (49 percent) say church attendance is "somewhat" or "very" important, but half (51 percent) say it is "not too" or "not at all" important. The younger we are, the worse the numbers get. Only two in 10 adults under the age of 30 believe church is important; more than a third take an anti-church stance. ...


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Andy Proctor | Grace Baptist Church
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· Page 1 ·  Found: 67 user comment(s)
News Item4/7/14 5:35 AM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
R. K. Borill wrote:
UPS,
I hear what you are saying, but I think our disagreement may rest on how each of us understands the meaning of "doeth righteousness", surely you can not mean good works to merit the favor of God?
The short answer is there is nothing we can do to merit God's favor, when we have done all He says we are yet unprofitable servants. Yet he also said that we are ordained to walk in good works and be zealous of them. No good works produce salvation, no salvation does not produce good works. When our Lord spoke of being born from above He compared it to the wind. We cannot see it, but we know it exists by the effects that we can observe. I Corinthians 3 tells us our works will be tried and rewarded.
Not sure if that answered your question.
67

News Item4/6/14 10:32 PM
R. K. Borill | Baton Rouge, Louisiana  Protected NameFind all comments by R. K. Borill
UPS,

I hear what you are saying, but I think our disagreement may rest on how each of us understands the meaning of "doeth righteousness", surely you can not mean good works to merit the favor of God?

66

News Item4/6/14 10:15 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
R. K. Borill wrote:
...
RK responds,
We have a responsibility to protect the church from scandalous behavior and false doctrine, In either case The Lord is telling his disciples to judge false prophets, Ye shall know them by their fruits, i.e, their false doctrine and those who are deceived by their doctrine....
No argument from me there. But again it still points to the ability to discern those who are in the body of Christ. Nobody is saying our judgment is perfect, but if we are going to fulfill the many one another commands of Scripture, it is a necessity. Way implied that it can't be done. I am saying both Scripturally and experimentally it can. The Lord did not need, as he stated in his question, to perceive those who were false followers, He already knew. We both agree (you and I) that God works through His visible church.
65

News Item4/6/14 9:49 PM
R. K. Borill | Baton Rouge, Louisiana  Protected NameFind all comments by R. K. Borill
UPS writes,

You're are a elder, you have to work with the people to whom you minister, you of necessity make judgments about their spiritual state. Ways contention is we have no way of knowing the visible church, and I would say both Scripturally and experimentally that he is incorrect in his view.

RK responds,

We have a responsibility to protect the church from scandalous behavior and false doctrine, In either case The Lord is telling his disciples to judge false prophets, Ye shall know them by their fruits, i.e, their false doctrine and those who are deceived by their doctrine. Regarding the visible church, we do not know who the elect are perfectly. We may have our doubts about some of our members outwardly but we must defer our judgements to The Lord who is able to look upon the heart. Even when members may be over taken in a fault we must be careful in judgement.
Galatians 6:1 KJV
[1] Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

64

News Item4/6/14 9:22 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
R. K. Borill wrote:
Way writes,
Tell me Ups, what was it Jesus perceived in them to reject them?
RK responds,
Way, it's interesting that he asks a question and you answer with scripture proof that he requested. Yet, he completely avoided your question.
... .
I appreciate you answering Way's question, R K. There is a reason I "avoided" it, mainly because we were discussing whether or not I can identify the elect from their fruits. Our Lord does not need to perceive whether or not those whom He condemns to eternal damnation have any genuine fruit. He never knew them, their life was marked by the practice of lawlessness. He is omniscient. I am not, therefore I addressed the issue of our discussion, the point he made about Matthew 7 does not relate to my ability but God's, His judgment is always perfect mine will be flawed. His point was that we can be fooled, and I conceded that point. He also chose to ignore the context of the verse he quoted.
You're are a elder, you have to work with the people to whom you minister, you of necessity make judgments about their spiritual state. Ways contention is we have no way of knowing the visible church, and I would say both Scripturally and experimentally that he is incorrect in his view.
63

News Item4/6/14 8:39 PM
R. K. Borill | Baton Rouge, Louisiana  Protected NameFind all comments by R. K. Borill
Way writes,

Tell me Ups, what was it Jesus perceived in them to reject them?

RK responds,

Way, it's interesting that he asks a question and you answer with scripture proof that he requested. Yet, he completely avoided your question.

I'll help him. They were rejected because they were not justified by grace through faith alone. They gave evidence of this by attempting to justify themselves by what they perceive as "good works". Notice how they say, "have we not DONE". . .

62

News Item4/3/14 3:21 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
way wrote:
Wow! You can identify the elect - "from their fruits" Amazing...
If you want me to admit my judgment could be flawed, then I will do so. But you need to read the verses ahead of the one you referenced.

Matthew 7:16-20
16 Ye shall KNOW them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits YE SHALL KNOW them

I John 3:7 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Hebrews 4:13
10 In this the children of God are MANIFEST, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

How could Paul write a group of believers and say he knew their election of God? Why do we have list of the works of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit?

Can we be fooled, read Acts 8:13, but generally speaking in my experience you can tell if you are dealing with a brother or sister in the Lord.

61

News Item4/3/14 2:50 PM
No Way  Find all comments by No Way
way wrote:
Wow! You can identify the elect - "from their fruits" Amazing.
Tell me what are the fruits of the elect which identify them as specifically being the elect of God?
Also how do the fruits which you perceive are specifically of the elect differ from that of the non-elect who frequently sit in the pews, confessing the same religious theology?
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
== To purely human eyes and thinking these guys sounded and looked kosher - But Jesus rejects them and declares He does not know them.
Tell me Ups, what was it Jesus perceived in them to reject them?
Try reading the Bible for a change and then you might find the answer for yourself. But that's too much like hard work for you I suppose.
60

News Item4/3/14 2:40 PM
way  Find all comments by way
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
I cannot see the seal of the Holy Spirit on a believer, but even if I cannot see the roots, I can see the fruits
Wow! You can identify the elect - "from their fruits" Amazing.
Tell me what are the fruits of the elect which identify them as specifically being the elect of God?
Also how do the fruits which you perceive are specifically of the elect differ from that of the non-elect who frequently sit in the pews, confessing the same religious theology?

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
== To purely human eyes and thinking these guys sounded and looked kosher - But Jesus rejects them and declares He does not know them.
Tell me Ups, what was it Jesus perceived in them to reject them?

59

News Item4/3/14 1:28 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
way wrote:
You asked...
Maybe you could clarify then, seeing you are using commentaries and confessions that refer to both a visible and invisible church. Because you clearly stated the real church is invisible (that is what got this whole discussion started) by logic, that would make the visible church fake. So, if that is NOT what you are stating, then my apologies.

You are correct, I cannot see the seal of the Holy Spirit on a believer, but even if I cannot see the roots, I can see the fruits.

God only works in this world through the visible church. So not sure why you would speak of an invisible church, which according to the quotes you used consist of believers past, present and future and would not have anything to do with the assembling of ourselves together which is what the article covers.

58

News Item4/3/14 12:04 PM
No way  Find all comments by No way
way wrote:
You asked for Bible verses well they are quoted in the WCF. You cannot identify the invisible church?
Tell me Unprofitable Servant, can you recognise and identify an "Elect" Christian? Can you read hearts?
If like all "normal" mortals you cannot identify the "Elect" - Then are they invisible to you?
Where in the bible do you find the elect identified as the church, let alone the invisible church? Always seeking fiction as opposed to truth!
57

News Item4/3/14 11:59 AM
way  Find all comments by way
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
Why thank you, the WCF, why am I not suprised. Although no verse cited uses the word invisible, maybe you could narrow it down for me. Thanks
You asked for Bible verses well they are quoted in the WCF. You cannot identify the invisible church?
Tell me Unprofitable Servant, can you recognise and identify an "Elect" Christian? Can you read hearts?

If like all "normal" mortals you cannot identify the "Elect" - Then are they invisible to you?

"Starting around the 4th century - the expression "Visible Church" was referred to by theologians, not to a building, but to the members on the rolls of a local church. In other words, all persons who are members of a local church are considered to be a part of the visible church.

On the other hand, the invisible church refers to those persons who have actually been regenerated or quickened by the Holy Sprit, God's elect or true believers. Augustine referred to the church as a mixed body, a visible people, but this people has both tares and wheat, as described by Jesus." (J.Hendryx)

56

News Item4/3/14 11:22 AM
rhymnrzn | dayton, ohio  Contact via emailFind all comments by rhymnrzn
"Half of us (49 percent) say church attendance is "somewhat" or "very" important, but half (51 percent) say it is "not too" or "not at all" important."

If I "recognized Israel", in other words,, perceived the grace of God, I would feel the urge that it was all important to attend the congregation of saints and fellow believers.

55

News Item4/3/14 6:39 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
I am also somewhat confused. When I asked for Scripture, I got a quote from the right reverend WCF. Noting also the catechism quoted in an earlier post would point to Way's source of truth for the beliefs stated. The confusion comes in where in point 2 from the right reverend WCF it talks about the VISIBLE church. (News Item 4/2/14 5:31 PM way) but in the previous post, (4/2/14 9:31 AM Way) he said, "The real Church is invisible." (my faltering memory thinks you have stated that before in different threads) So, maybe you can help clarify, are you correct or is the right reverend WCF correct? Thanks
US,
Do you remember the account of Joseph Smith? When he wanted to read the Mormon plates he dug up out of the ground, the only way to read them was by wearing those enormous special spectacles. Maybe it's the same with the WCF.
54

News Item4/2/14 10:32 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
I am also somewhat confused. When I asked for Scripture, I got a quote from the right reverend WCF. Noting also the catechism quoted in an earlier post would point to Way's source of truth for the beliefs stated. The confusion comes in where in point 2 from the right reverend WCF it talks about the VISIBLE church. (News Item 4/2/14 5:31 PM way) but in the previous post, (4/2/14 9:31 AM Way) he said, "The real Church is invisible." (my faltering memory thinks you have stated that before in different threads) So, maybe you can help clarify, are you correct or is the right reverend WCF correct? Thanks
53

News Item4/2/14 6:25 PM
Unprofitable Servant | Georgia  Find all comments by Unprofitable Servant
way wrote:
WCF 25/1...."
Why thank you, the WCF, why am I not suprised. Although no verse cited uses the word invisible, maybe you could narrow it down for me. Thanks
52

News Item4/2/14 5:48 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
It's very quiet tonight. Shall I turn in?

51

News Item4/2/14 5:35 PM
No Way  Find all comments by No Way
way wrote:
WCF 25/1. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.a
a. Eph 1:10, 22-23; Eph 5:23, 27, 32; Col 1:18.
2. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation as before under the law) consists of all those, throughout the world, that profess the true religion,a and of their children;b and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,c the house and family of God,d out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.e
a. Psa 2:8; Rom 15:9-12; 1 Cor 1:2; 12:12-13; Rev 7:9. • b. Gen 3:15; 17:7; Ezek 16:20-21; Acts 2:39; Rom 11:16; 1 Cor 7:14. • c. Isa 9:7; Mat 13:47. • d. Eph 2:19; 3:15. • e. Acts 2:47.
1689 Baptist Conf
26/1 "The universal Church, which may be called invisible (in respect of the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) consists of the entire number of the elect, all those who have been, who are, or who shall be gathered into one under Christ, Who is the Head. This universal Church is the wife ..."
He's found his bible!
50

News Item4/2/14 5:31 PM
way  Find all comments by way
Unprofitable Servant wrote:
support YOUR view with Scripture
WCF 25/1. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.a
a. Eph 1:10, 22-23; Eph 5:23, 27, 32; Col 1:18.

2. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation as before under the law) consists of all those, throughout the world, that profess the true religion,a and of their children;b and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,c the house and family of God,d out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.e
a. Psa 2:8; Rom 15:9-12; 1 Cor 1:2; 12:12-13; Rev 7:9. • b. Gen 3:15; 17:7; Ezek 16:20-21; Acts 2:39; Rom 11:16; 1 Cor 7:14. • c. Isa 9:7; Mat 13:47. • d. Eph 2:19; 3:15. • e. Acts 2:47.

1689 Baptist Conf
26/1 "The universal Church, which may be called invisible (in respect of the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) consists of the entire number of the elect, all those who have been, who are, or who shall be gathered into one under Christ, Who is the Head. This universal Church is the wife ..."

49

News Item4/2/14 4:29 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Scripturally, the early church was so visible that Saul of Tarsus was able to travel all over the place rounding up all the Christian believers.

Maybe some in "the church" today are so fearful of being "rounded up" that they deliberately remain invisible to the "rounder-uppers".

48
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