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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  9/1/2014
SUNDAY, MAR 9, 2014  |  491 comments
Lonely and sidelined - the plight of older people, even in the Church

"It's really common for older people to experience depression," Louise notes.

"They are often sidelined by the Church, and lose their sense of identity and value. On top of that, with so many of them living alone, there's an issue of loneliness.

"We've found overwhelmingly that people want to know how to better care for the elderly in their communities. We have pastors coming up to us, saying that they just aren't trained to care for older people, and so we're doing our best to educate churches to do just that."

Louise also maintains that elderly people have a key role to play in evangelising, particularly to other older members of the community. ...


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
www.christiantoday.com

Majesty of a Godly Marriage
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· Page 1 ·  Found: 491 user comment(s)
News Item3/17/14 9:09 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Observer wrote:
No need bro for a sad face. That's spot on!
Bro Lurker's point was just that, that if the national legal covenant was the covenant of grace, how could it have been broken?
Getting there slowly, the little grey cells are not quite as vigorous as they once were. But this is most excellent, to go through it like this, and I so appreciate the efforts of yourself and Lurker in your valiant assistance in the matter. Praise the Lord that his eternal covenant is unbreakable, giving great hope and comfort to all who have believed on Christ to the salvation of their souls. Who can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

Now off to work, or I'll get nothing done today. Back later.

491

News Item3/17/14 8:46 AM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
John UK wrote:
Yes, that makes sense now. And I think it was the covenant which Lurker said was broken, as explained later in the OT? So the covenant of grace cannot be broken by man, but a legal covenant can be broken and was.
I think.
No need bro for a sad face. That's spot on!

Bro Lurker's point was just that, that if the national legal covenant was the covenant of grace, how could it have been broken?

490

News Item3/17/14 8:39 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Observer wrote:
No bro it was NOT the covenant of grace!
That was bro Lurker's point viz. how can a legal covenant be the covenant of grace? And the sign of a legal covenant (circumcision) be the sign of the covenant of grace?
Yes, that makes sense now. And I think it was the covenant which Lurker said was broken, as explained later in the OT? So the covenant of grace cannot be broken by man, but a legal covenant can be broken and was.

I think.

489

News Item3/17/14 8:19 AM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
John UK wrote:
Aha! This might just answer my question of some time ago. If I get your drift, the legal covenant with Abraham and his physical seed was NOT the covenant of grace.
No bro it was NOT the covenant of grace!

That was bro Lurker's point viz. how can a legal covenant be the covenant of grace? And the sign of a legal covenant (circumcision) be the sign of the covenant of grace?

488

News Item3/17/14 8:14 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Observer wrote:
The promise to Abraham of a multitudeness seed had 2 aspects. The letter as it applied to his physical seed under a legal covenant, and to Christ and all in him as to its spiritual aspect.
OOS
Aha! This might just answer my question of some time ago. If I get your drift, the legal covenant with Abraham and his physical seed was NOT the covenant of grace.
487

News Item3/17/14 7:54 AM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
John UK wrote:
..am I paddling up a different creek?
Hey John

The truth of the matter is so simple that to build a complex theology around this issue only suits those who want to darken wisdom with words.

What Presbys call the Covt of Redemption, Baptists call the Covt of Grace. So you're right there that this Covt is a salvation covenant, and salvation has always been by grace through faith.

But we can trace the gradual unfolding and benefits under this covenant in promises, types and shadows until the day dawned and the promised seed arrived, and under the New Covenant it was fully revealed.

But the promises, types and shadows pointing to Christ and his work were revealed alongside legal covenants and ran parallel to these so that the Law served to point to Christ.

Take for instance Eden. No sooner has man fallen, we get the Gospel given to Adam and Eve in the promise of one who would come and bruise the serpent's head!

Abraham by promise and type was the father of the faithful, just as by promise and type David was the King to come etc.

The promise to Abraham of a multitudeness seed had 2 aspects. The letter as it applied to his physical seed under a legal covenant, and to Christ and all in him as to its spiritual aspect.

486

News Item3/17/14 7:23 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Observer wrote:
Bros Lurker and John
Ya know that Presbys hold that every OT covenant, other than the 'works covenant' in Eden, was an administration of the Covenant of Grace, which from our point of view is utter rubbish.
I don't know about "every covenant" bro, but when it comes to salvation, there can only be one way for God to save sinners, whether in the old or the new testaments, that is by grace. Man is utterly incapable of keeping the law; he is a sinner by nature and by deed.

Could I say then, that there is a "covenant of salvation", brought in and spoken about in The Garden, and revealed through various steps in the OT until the final antitype revelation in the Person of the Slain Lamb, the Son of God? How else would you have OT/NT sinners saved?

The tabernacle/temple was an excellent type to be fulfilled, with its mercy seat and the blood of atonement (Yom Kippur) for the forgiveness of sins; the Passover Lamb, etc.

I equate "covenant of grace" with "covenant of redemption" with "covenant of salvation", all for the benefit of those whom God has chosen before the world was made, knowing that they would be sinners in need of redeeming.

Or am I paddling up a different creek?

485

News Item3/17/14 6:47 AM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
Bros Lurker and John

Ya know that Presbys hold that every OT covenant, other than the 'works covenant' in Eden, was an administration of the Covenant of Grace, which from our point of view is utter rubbish. To demolish this theory (that's the best we can call it), we only need to demolish this idea for one covenant and the whole deck of cards comes tumbling to the floor.

So, let's think for a moment of one that may be an Achilles heal. The one that I would go for, reading Hebrews, is the Mosaic covenant. Read Hebrews with eyes open and brain alive to the issues and suddenly you see the whole flawed scheme collapse. The author to the Hebrews speaks in no uncertain terms of the Mosaic as being a Legal Covenant. One would have to do mental gymnastics of epic proportions to even try and skirt around the verses, and even then that would be just the start of their problems.

John Owen in his work on Heb 8 has dedicated an entire section demolishing this notion and does a very fine job! Our Baptist fathers agreed so much with Owen's work that they, to my knowledge, never published anything on it. They just referred everyone to his work.

I'll try locate this on the web and post up a link later.

Y'all have a great day now!

God bless.

PS. Anyone heard from Frank lately?

484

News Item3/16/14 9:31 PM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
Lurker wrote:
You just made a point I've never considered before..... Abraham's flesh circumcision was a **seal** of his heart circumcision.
And a **sign** of the legal covenant between him and his seed with God later published by Moses.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token (sign) of the covenant betwixt me and you.
A sign but not a seal.
I'm going to ponder on this for a while as I think you're onto something. Thanks bro.
No problem bro.

It could NOT be a sign to Abraham, as Abraham already believed!

Anyways, I gotta go. God willing, catch ya tomorrow.

483

News Item3/16/14 8:39 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Observer wrote:
Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised

When given it was a sign to his progeny, but a seal only to Abraham of the righteousness of faith which HE had yet being uncircumcised.

You just made a point I've never considered before..... Abraham's flesh circumcision was a **seal** of his heart circumcision.

And a **sign** of the legal covenant between him and his seed with God later published by Moses.

Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token (sign) of the covenant betwixt me and you.

A sign but not a seal.

I'm going to ponder on this for a while as I think you're onto something. Thanks bro.

John UK wrote:
Give me a few more years and I reckon I'll get a hold of all this.
No problem, brother. When you get onto what God has set in your heart (the gospel and preaching to the lost) the words of biblical wisdom flow from your fingertips like water over a falls. That, dear brother, is a gift second to none and few possess it.
482

News Item3/16/14 7:50 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker, many years ago in the UK we had machines which took one penny. Sometimes the coins got stuck halfway down. The only way to get it moving again was to bash the machine, and then the penny dropped and you got what you were after.

Now I feel as though your penny has got stuck, so all you have to do is......

Hey! Steady on old bean!

Give me a few more years and I reckon I'll get a hold of all this.

Right now, I gotta turn in. Bless you brother!

481

News Item3/16/14 7:30 PM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
Lurker wrote:
....It's not really sticky if you understand that circumcision is more than just a sign and seal. That was the point of my pointed questions yesterday that never got answered by the CT adherents. Rom 4:11 and Gal 5:2-6 are related whether the Presbys want to acknowledge it or not..... Love you, brother.
Spot on bro!

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised

When given it was a sign to his progeny, but a seal only to Abraham of the righteousness of faith which HE had yet being uncircumcised.

To everyone else it was a sign of what? Like a road sign it pointed to:

1. Abraham's faith and that righteousness comes by faith
2. the promised seed (hence the sign on the male reproductive organ)
3. the legal covenant which his physical seed were bound to observe on pain of death. The same sign later attached to Moses' law confirming, as you point out, that it was always a legal covenant.

You've also pointed to Galatians 5:2, 3 which say if someone is circumcised Christ shall profit them nothing and that they are debtors to do the whole law!

480

News Item3/16/14 7:20 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Thanks Lurker. If I apply your response to the OT giving of the covenant (which is all I am looking at), then you would appear to be saying that only some of Abraham's children were partaker of the covenant.
Not really, brother. Whoever was circumcised was bound by the terms of the covenant later fully expounded and published by Moses. This is why it is so ridiculous to call that covenant the covenant of grace. Circumcision of the flesh bound the circumcised to the Law of Moses even though it wasn't yet published.
John UK wrote:
But the sticky part is that all of them received the sign of the covenant. This is what I'm grappling with at the moment. Tying up loose ends? Maybe, but I aim to get at it.
It's not really sticky if you understand that circumcision is more than just a sign and seal. That was the point of my pointed questions yesterday that never got answered by the CT adherents. Rom 4:11 and Gal 5:2-6 are related whether the Presbys want to acknowledge it or not.

I know I have a way of causing you more confusion than answers so I apologize if I did it again. Love you, brother.

479

News Item3/16/14 7:00 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Edit: John,
God's promise to Abraham was reaffirmed to Isaac and again to Jacob. That rules out Ishmael, the children Abraham had with Keturah and Esau.
Where Paul writes "not all Israel is Israel" he is talking about Jacob's seed being infiltrated with the seed of Esau (Edom). But we must be careful to not fall into the trap of imposing a literal OT interpretation onto the NT writings. Paul makes it clear that only believers are Abraham's seed..... and believers are made by God not DNA.
Thanks Lurker. If I apply your response to the OT giving of the covenant (which is all I am looking at), then you would appear to be saying that only some of Abraham's children were partaker of the covenant. But the sticky part is that all of them received the sign of the covenant. This is what I'm grappling with at the moment. Tying up loose ends? Maybe, but I aim to get at it.

Observer. Yep, got your mail, thanks. I'll have a look when there is time, looking forward to it, bro. You're a right helpful brother!

478

News Item3/16/14 6:29 PM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
Lurker wrote:
Been a little down lately but nothing to be overly concerned about...God will see me through. He always does.
Well, bro as you know, I have seasons of the soul and the winters can be very trying. BUT after years of the same, I am still here standing by God's grace.

Lurker wrote:
.. I grow weary of these discussions. The things that separate Baptists and Presby's are rooted in much deeper differences that those which can be discussed of a forum. Hence, I'm directing more of my time to writing that paper I mentioned a while back.
Agreed bro! Very wearing. But as you've probably discovered they want to speak in generalities and are very weak in Scriptural specifics.

Good about the article! I look forward to reading it when it's ready.

Lurker wrote:
Your question RE: Gal 4:28 and natural seed.... I don't see it but I may be missing your point.
Sorry for being vague bro. I was referring to the Abrahamic covenant and it's letter applying to the natural seed. But you've answered this in yours to John.

Blessings to ya!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John, got yours thanks. Fired a response over to ya. Hope it helps.

477

News Item3/16/14 6:15 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
bp wrote:
I remember saying before to you that you didn't seem to grasp election.
That is a deliberate insult and a known lie. More blah blah from Blah-Blah Man of a Thousand Monikers. You know full well that I believe in the Biblical Doctrines of Free and Sovereign Grace. Man, you're just full of blah, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

And BTW, you still haven't answered the question.

476

News Item3/16/14 6:09 PM
bp  Find all comments by bp
John UK wrote:
But when I ask you a spiritual question, you ignore it and rant on and on, which to me is just blah blah. Now do you understand?
I remember saying before to you that you didn't seem to grasp election. Perhaps that is the problem.
As I have already said, I have answered the question in the only way the Bible reveals it. It is your problem if you cannot perceive what it says.
Can't you see the way in which election and covenant are combined?

ps. Christians do not use contemptuous terms such as "blah" and "rant" These come from evil hearts such as your accomplice is guilty of.

But I am still commanded to pray for you... Luke 6: 28 "Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you."

I am off now to do prayers. Goodnight John. God be with you.

475

News Item3/16/14 6:08 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Observer wrote:
Lurker bro
Have missed you. Hope everything's okay with ya.
Gal 4.28 is spot on in it's spiritual import. But was there an application of the letter to the natural seed?
Been a little down lately but nothing to be overly concerned about. Its not health related and God will see me through. He always does.

I took a little spin with the Presby's yesterday on this thread but seriously, I grow weary of these discussions. The things that separate Baptists and Presby's are rooted in much deeper differences that those which can be discussed of a forum. Hence, I'm directing more of my time to writing that paper I mentioned a while back.

Your question RE: Gal 4:28 and natural seed.... I don't see it but I may be missing your point.

Edit: John,

God's promise to Abraham was reaffirmed to Isaac and again to Jacob. That rules out Ishmael, the children Abraham had with Keturah and Esau.

Where Paul writes "not all Israel is Israel" he is talking about Jacob's seed being infiltrated with the seed of Esau (Edom). But we must be careful to not fall into the trap of imposing a literal OT interpretation onto the NT writings. Paul makes it clear that only believers are Abraham's seed..... and believers are made by God not DNA.

474

News Item3/16/14 6:04 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Try this one, John....
Gal 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Is this an answer to my question bro?

You are saying that God made a covenant with SOME of Abraham's offspring in Gen 17?

Observer, on its way.

473

News Item3/16/14 5:50 PM
Observer  Contact via emailFind all comments by Observer
John UK wrote:
Miss? Oh, same old, same old.
You know, the question I asked, I've no idea what the answer is, it's got me really baffled. No matter which way you apply it, there are problems. It's a real sticky question for sure.
John, if you're minded, PM me and let's do this off forum. You can then pursue this matter with the Presbys with clarity.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lurker bro

Have missed you. Hope everything's okay with ya.

Gal 4.28 is spot on in it's spiritual import. But was there an application of the letter to the natural seed?

472
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