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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  7/25/2014
SATURDAY, FEB 22, 2014  |  25 comments
John Brown, US Slavery and Segregated Churches: A Christian Historian Offers Perspective

Brown, born in 1800 to Calvinist parents in Connecticut, believed in armed resistance to slavery. An ardent abolitionist, Brown is most known for leading less than two dozen men, including his sons, on a raid at Harpers Ferry in what is now West Virginia. Brown hoped to spark an uprising among slaves to bring an end to the institution, but failed miserably. Two days after the attack, Brown was defeated by Confederate Army Gen. Robert E. Lee, and hanged on Dec. 2, 1859, after a swift trial headed by a judge and jury who were slaveholders. During his trial, the Christian abolitionist insisted that his actions were just and sanctioned by God.

In the interivew transcript below (edited for brevity), DeCaro discusses with CP aspects of the abolitionist movement and John Brown's place in it, Christian attitudes toward slavery, and some reasons behind segregated Christian churches. ...


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COMMENTS | show all | add new  
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· Page 1 ·  Found: 25 user comment(s)
News Item2/26/14 8:16 PM
Strat  Find all comments by Strat
Jim Lincoln wrote:
This is an interesting article, and I have used quotes from this organization before. US hate groups in decline as radical ideas go mainstream. Mr Dees had a prominent role and the History Channel's ku Klux Klan documentary. a quotation from the article that I am highlighting, 'The Southern Poverty Law Center defines hate groups as those with "beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics."
'Race or skin color, religion and sexual orientation top the agenda for many of the groups.'
I certainly don't agree about is on queers, e.g., Homosexuality: A Biblical Perspective
Perspective
and Can Christ Change a Person?---One Man's Journey From Homosexuality to Christ
"two wrongs make a right?" Strat,
Where did I say that ? I'm talking about black racism,all institutions and organizations that identify themselves by race are racist
25

News Item2/26/14 8:02 AM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
This is an interesting article, and I have used quotes from this organization before. US hate groups in decline as radical ideas go mainstream. Mr Dees had a prominent role and the History Channel's ku Klux Klan documentary. a quotation from the article that I am highlighting, 'The Southern Poverty Law Center defines hate groups as those with "beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics."

'Race or skin color, religion and sexual orientation top the agenda for many of the groups.'

I certainly don't agree about is on queers, e.g., Homosexuality: A Biblical Perspective
Perspective
and Can Christ Change a Person?---One Man's Journey From Homosexuality to Christ

"two wrongs make a right?" Strat,

24

News Item2/25/14 6:46 PM
Strat  Find all comments by Strat
In the South wrote:
"....some reasons behind segregated Christian churches. ..."
Where I live in the South the churches are segregated but so are the beliefs of the churches.
A "black" church with no whites is just as segregated as a white church with no blacks "segregation" like many words has been hijacked to mean what the left wants it to mean and most go along with it.
23

News Item2/25/14 1:49 PM
In the South | USA  Find all comments by In the South
"....some reasons behind segregated Christian churches. ..."

Where I live in the South the churches are segregated but so are the beliefs of the churches.

22

News Item2/24/14 11:05 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
BWS wrote:
Are you kidding? John Brown absolutely did not hold to traditional Calvinistic teaching!
Even non-Christian historians with no theological ax to grind say otherwise: Brown was a Calvinist, though a murderer like Cromwell (with whom he was compared). Southern chattel slavery was Biblically indefensible. Take a Scots Presby's word for it: www.covenanter.org/McLeod/negro.htm
21

News Item2/24/14 9:35 PM
NRC  Find all comments by NRC
Some "preachers" from the south here on SA try to defend slavery using Gods word
20

News Item2/24/14 8:42 PM
Strat  Find all comments by Strat
BWS wrote:
Are you kidding? John Brown absolutely did not hold to traditional Calvinistic teaching! John Brown was America's first terrorist, a heretical fanatic and psychopath (see dictionary definition).
Google "What John Brown did in Kansas", then try to convince us that he was a real Christian instead of a crazed murderer that held the equivalent of what became Black Liberation Theology, with militia fanaticism!
Also, the Bible does not teach Abolitionism, or the abolition of the Master-Servant relation any more than it does that of Fathers-Children or Husbands-Wives (i.e. Ephesians, Colossians, Timothy, et al). Abuse within a relation does not negate the relations established and regulated in the Bible.
So unless I misunderstand you you support slavery with all of its attending atrocities and God supports slavery with all of it's attending atrocities.
19

News Item2/24/14 2:42 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Why, Mike of NY, you mean there are coal-black (and I bet there are quite a few Blacks proud of it too!) Black Catholics that can belong to the KKK?

I remember a program on the radio many years ago, about how the Klan attitude has changed towards Catholics, I now even found a written piece that goes along with that.

Mark Liberator wrote:
Beginning in the mid-1970's, new leaders tried to give a more respectable image to competing Klan groups. Some accepted women as members and set up youth groups. The KKK especially appealed to whites who resented both special programs designed to help blacks and job competition from blacks and recent immigrants. Also in the 1970's, it largely abandoned its opposition to Roman Catholics.
excerpt from, Interview with The Ku Klux Klan: Jeff Berry Imperial Wizard of The American Knights.
18

News Item2/24/14 11:37 AM
pennelope  Find all comments by pennelope
Mike, ya, that is racism, I was thinking the same way. same old Marxist tactics, setting people against people. a truer reading of history might rectify the situation. for instance star parker's work on the racist history of gun control. funny how up becomes down and left becomes right, isn't it? there sure is a lot of rewriting of history.

God is not a collectivist. We won't be able to hide behind our group, labels, institutions, philanthropies, or human powers to justify ourselves. God sees through all of it!

17

News Item2/24/14 9:08 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Jim Lincoln wrote:
---
Also the documentary didn't point out the acceptance of lily-white Catholics into the various Reactionary organizations, which I believe the Klan has done.
---
We disagree on much, but I didn't expect to find racist remarks from you, Jim.
16

News Item2/23/14 10:03 PM
BWS  Find all comments by BWS
Neil wrote:
Glad he pointed out Brown's Calvinism; that is usually overlooked....
Are you kidding? John Brown absolutely did not hold to traditional Calvinistic teaching! John Brown was America's first terrorist, a heretical fanatic and psychopath (see dictionary definition).

Google "What John Brown did in Kansas", then try to convince us that he was a real Christian instead of a crazed murderer that held the equivalent of what became Black Liberation Theology, with militia fanaticism!

Also, the Bible does not teach Abolitionism, or the abolition of the Master-Servant relation any more than it does that of Fathers-Children or Husbands-Wives (i.e. Ephesians, Colossians, Timothy, et al). Abuse within a relation does not negate the relations established and regulated in the Bible.

15

News Item2/23/14 8:01 PM
Strat  Find all comments by Strat
GAB wrote:
Jim Lincoln, so in other words your saying your a liberal I take it?
We live in a spiritually,culturally and ideologically androgynous age where one can believe and subscribe to anything and claim any label they choose and think others actually buy into it...Mr Lincoln is a liberal in every modern sense of the word which is his right...everybody knows it but he doesn't think others are smart enough to know it....claiming the intellectual high ground is common with liberals.
14

News Item2/23/14 7:46 PM
GAB  Find all comments by GAB
Jim Lincoln, so in other words your saying your a liberal I take it?
13

News Item2/23/14 5:01 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
The Ku Klux Klan: A Secret History -- Complete Documentary, is really modern history, David Duke may still be around as is the para-military groups that the Klan morphed into.

Ah, I really don't know how often I have to point out that I'm an Independent, my family fought on the side of the Union during the Civil War, and were Republicans albeit, thinking ones, who could vote for the best candidates be the Republican or not since the period of the Civil War. We certainly wouldn't have anything to do with any Southern party! (Oh, which is a good reason not to be a Republican now ) So, documentary brings the history of the Klan up to date. Yes, I know the Confederate general Deforest (sp?) started the Klan. Of course he wouldn't have been a Republican--during the Reconstruction period. Also the documentary didn't point out the acceptance of lily-white Catholics into the various Reactionary organizations, which I believe the Klan has done.

By the way, I have supported the idea that churches should stay of politics even before going to IHCC, and I applaud Gil Rugh desire to stay out of politics as well,The Church in the Political Process.

12

News Item2/23/14 6:24 AM
Strat  Find all comments by Strat
Bob Neill wrote:
It has been a few years since I did any serious reading on John Brown, but my memory is that he was involved in atrocious and brutal attacks in the mid west that can in no way be defended. The author here says something along the lines that he "knows there are extended arguments" that he does not wish to get into regarding the negative aspects of Brown's activities at Harpers Ferry and that he "chooses" to view Brown positively. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could so conveniently and honestly dismiss heinous activities with no negative effects. Unfortunately we can't be so dismissive and not do great damage to truth. Slavery was horrific and in no way defensible. So is dishonest history. My memory is that John Brown was a law breaking renegade. Do your own research on this and see but don't just buy this picture of John Brown as some saint cloaked in Calvinism.
I guess all that can be said is that evil never goes away quietly or without a fight and that fight gets ugly,slavery was evil and much blood was shed by it and in the process of removing it.
11

News Item2/23/14 12:58 AM
Bob Neill | Deep South  Find all comments by Bob Neill
It has been a few years since I did any serious reading on John Brown, but my memory is that he was involved in atrocious and brutal attacks in the mid west that can in no way be defended. The author here says something along the lines that he "knows there are extended arguments" that he does not wish to get into regarding the negative aspects of Brown's activities at Harpers Ferry and that he "chooses" to view Brown positively. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could so conveniently and honestly dismiss heinous activities with no negative effects. Unfortunately we can't be so dismissive and not do great damage to truth. Slavery was horrific and in no way defensible. So is dishonest history. My memory is that John Brown was a law breaking renegade. Do your own research on this and see but don't just buy this picture of John Brown as some saint cloaked in Calvinism.
10

News Item2/22/14 10:53 PM
What no mention of | its democrat roots  Find all comments by What no mention of
Jim Lincoln wrote:
Well, Strat, if you viewed History Channel Secret History of the Ku Klux Klan, you'll notice another definition for churches, if it was burned down or blown up, it was a Black church if nothing happened to it, or just as likely nothing inside it -- then it was a White Church.
Oh, by the way, when Robert E. Lee took care of John Brown he was an American colonel, it was only later that turned traitor. As General Grant pointed out in the resources of the South, Southerners forgot to count their slaves, many who stayed loyal throughout the Civil War. What was it, the South raised a company or even a regiment of slaves near the end of the war?
When is Jim going to mention that the KKK was started by his beloved democrats
9

News Item2/22/14 6:11 PM
Strat  Find all comments by Strat
Jim Lincoln wrote:
Well, Strat, if you viewed History Channel Secret History of the Ku Klux Klan, you'll notice another definition for churches, if it was burned down or blown up, it was a Black church if nothing happened to it, or just as likely nothing inside it -- then it was a White Church.
Oh, by the way, when Robert E. Lee took care of John Brown he was an American colonel, it was only later that turned traitor. As General Grant pointed out in the resources of the South, Southerners forgot to count their slaves, many who stayed loyal throughout the Civil War. What was it, the South raised a company or even a regiment of slaves near the end of the war?
Well,Jim,what would we do without the past to dredge up again and again,i remember Christmas eve two years ago,i was flipping through channels to see what was on,BET,that's black entertainment television,not to be confused with white,was running "Roots" on Christmas Eve,i guess"Kwanza" wasn't in full swing yet....again what would white liberals and black racist do without the past to visit and revisit day after day and year after year.....remember....keep hatred alive.
8

News Item2/22/14 3:49 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Yes, there was a very strong Presbyterian/Unitarian support for abolition movement. The article that SA put up is worth reading in its entirety.
7

News Item2/22/14 3:19 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Glad he pointed out Brown's Calvinism; that is usually overlooked. Both he & his father were students of Jonathan Edward's writings.

Brown seemed able to both believe the Bible yet also befriend & live alongside blacks as well as Indians. No wonder he was considered crazy by many contemporaries.

6
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