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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  7/25/2014
TUESDAY, FEB 4, 2014  |  85 comments
Church of England waters down baptism

The Anglican Church has introduced a revised version of its baptismal service that replaces language deemed “inaccessible” to unchurched people. In particular, the new ceremony removes promises that parents and godparents had previously made to repent of sin and to “reject the devil.” The archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, supports the change.

Even though attendance at British Anglican congregations is generally quite low, many unchurched parents still wish to have newborns baptized. “In some instances,” the Anglican Liturgy Commission notes, “there are few people present [at a baptism] who have any real understanding of the Church’s language and symbolism.”

The current liturgy, which dates to 1998, has Anglican ministers ask parents if they “repent of the sins that separate us from God,” as well as renounce the devil and “rebellion against God.” The new text simply asks them, on behalf of ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 85 user comment(s)
News Item2/9/14 1:30 AM
CAB  Find all comments by CAB
John for JESUS wrote:
CAB..I believe God requires faith for salvation, not baptism. How does perseverance of the saints support the other ideas?..believers are saved by baptism in the Holy Spirit through faith.
Oh, baptism of the HS. Thought you meant water baptism. Agree!

TULIP is a 5 point heresy that works in tandem.

T- Total depravity, means people are so evil they can't choose. But Bible tells of many saints, good, just, holy men and women.

U- Unconditional election means if you win salvation lottery and get chosen, there are no conditions since we're all pure evil anyway. But Bible shows people are chosen on condition (ie humility, faith, willingness to obey).

L-Limited atonement heresy for the ones who win the lottery: all sins paid in advance by penal atonement; no double jeopardy, so you're home free. Bible teaches BLOOD atonement, NOT PENAL, by faith, for PAST sins, can be forfeited.

I-Irresistable grace, God imparts knowledge you're saved, and you can't resist. NOT! Jesus wept over Jerusalem because "they would not."

P-First 4 points lead to the big OSAS, Perseverance of Saints, aka Eternal Security. A lie! Salvation is CONDITIONAL on faith, abiding, not die dry. Overcome, die to self, stay full of HS. Life is a test!

85

News Item2/9/14 12:21 AM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
CAB...
I try to answer people's questions or objections because behind the alias is a real person. I believe God requires faith for salvation, not baptism. Do you consider me a one point Calvinist? How does perseverance of the saints support the other ideas?

I think believers are saved by baptism in the Holy Spirit through faith. The reason is because when one is indwelt by Christ, they put on the righteousness of Christ.

84

News Item2/8/14 10:39 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Question...
The question you asked was about discernment, which means the ability to understand. The believers at Corinth were having problems discerning, yet they were saved. I'm not going to take back what I said. I'm going to double down and reaffirm it, lol.
The natural person doesn't understand the things that come from the Holy Spirit, but Paul did and he preached it and wrote down the word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Ethiopian eunuch did not understand what he read until Philip explained it.
83

News Item2/8/14 8:19 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
All 5 points...
2. Yes...,When we joined the Presbyterian Church, which was *after* we became exclusive Psalmists, they sang without contention. That was just an observation I made when they were young enough to listen to a mother of all sons. It doesn't take long for males to want to lead.

Are you Pelagian then? Are you liberal?
-------
I wanted to say I'm sorry to hear about your family member. I don't think their is anything wrong with singing the psalms, but what is the biblical rational behind doing that only? It is definitely preferable than some of the places I've been too. As a younger Christian, I used to think it was funny (and kind of sad) that some churches would play heavy rock or dance music for the younger crowd.

I am not Pelagian or liberal. I've answered that better somewhere down below.

82

News Item2/8/14 8:13 PM
Question  Find all comments by Question
CAB wrote:
J4J, why do you discuss with people who won't ID themselves.
How does CAB identify you?

You're laughable.

81

News Item2/8/14 8:08 PM
CAB  Find all comments by CAB
John for JESUS, why do you discuss with people who won't ID themselves (ie "Question").

Calvinists on this forum know their reasoning is wicked, so they won't ID themselves, try to browbeat and insult you into backing down, and blow so much smoke you have to back off from the forum for several hours just to let the smoke clear.

Of course, not to be insulting, but you are yourself a Calvinist, but not a 5 pointer, and you acknowledge God does at least require one thing from a believer, which is baptism.

But truthfully, if you are going to go along with the 5th point of the TULIP you might as well go for all of them, because they all support each other, and rise and fall together.

I used to go to a Christian Church (name of a denomination like your beliefs) and spent a lot of time learning about baptism, its importance. The people were wonderful, the pastor sensible and had some good teachings. But I don't agree that everything rises and falls on baptism, but agree it's a required first step of the believer. But our continued faith is in Jesus, not baptism.

In the early church, people were saved from hearing Jesus preached, believing, THEN they got baptized: a good start in our race, but no way final victory to enter the strait gate.

80

News Item2/8/14 7:37 PM
Question  Find all comments by Question
John for JESUS wrote:
So believers didn't understand them either, yet that didn't prevent their faith.
You really are a slippery one!

The question was not about understanding. I granted that they could understand. Now you're saying even believers didn't understand but this did not prevent their faith?! So you want to take back what you wrote earlier about unbelievers understanding?

My question is not about believers. I am talking specifically about the 'natural man' viz. the person with no spiritual life in them. The text is very clear that they cannot receive the things of the Spirit for they are foolishness to them.

Do you take any part of the Bible seriously, or is it just a mental game to you?

My question again:
Agreed that the natural man does understand the gospel message, but as 1 Cor 2.14 explains, no natural man will receive the things of the Spirit but will account them foolishness. So my question to you is how does a natural man even begin to receive the things of the Spirit if they have to be spiritually discerned to know and receive them?

79

News Item2/8/14 7:29 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Question writes:

Agreed that the natural man does understand the gospel message, but as 1 Cor 2.14 explains, every natural man will not receive the things of the Spirit but account them foolishness. So my question to you is how does a natural man even begin to receive the things of the Spirit if they have to be spiritually discerned to know and receive them?
------
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (I Corinthians 2:13 NKJV)

Paul and Apollos spoke them so the people could understand. Yet, not all believers did.

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? (I Corinthians 3:1-3 NKJV)

So believers didn't understand them either, yet that didn't prevent their faith.

78

News Item2/8/14 5:26 PM
Pelagius  Find all comments by Pelagius
John for JESUS wrote:
Farr...
I don't know enough about Pelagius because most his works are still in Latin (or whatever language). I know he was supposed to be a heratic. He was wrong if he believed in salvation by works or that some people don't need of a Savior. The Bible is clear though, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
I'm to conservative to be liberal.
Pelagius believed what you believe - that the natural man is not sinful that he needs any help from the Spirit of God to believe the remedy that God has provided for all men to the saving of his soul. Like you he denied that faith was a gift.
77

News Item2/8/14 5:25 PM
All 5 points  Find all comments by All 5 points
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/ons..

I wasn't exactly sure this is helpful

76

News Item2/8/14 5:14 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Farr...
I don't know enough about Pelagius because most his works are still in Latin (or whatever language). I know he was supposed to be a heratic. He was wrong if he believed in salvation by works or that some people don't need of a Savior. The Bible is clear though, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

I'm to conservative to be liberal.

75

News Item2/8/14 4:55 PM
All 5 points  Find all comments by All 5 points
John for JESUS wrote:
All 5 points...
I read what "Mourner" said about Psalm 22. I guess that's you? So you believe God wants us to sing the Psalms only?
1. Yes, Mourner/All 5 Points/a sheep

2. Yes. It funny when my children were young they would not sing hymns in family worship. I tried everything bearing the haughty looks of children with two believing parents, for my non participating children. When we joined the Presbyterian Church, which was *after* we became exclusive Psalmists, they sang without contention. That was just an observation I made when they were young enough to listen to a mother of all sons. It doesn't take long for males to want to lead.

Are you Pelagian then? Are you liberal? I find it helpful to know what a poster believes and that isn't easy to do. I like Confessions of Faith for that reason. I know what the men I trust believed and who my brethren are in the visible Church. I don't believe I can know a man's election only GOD knows beyond question. I will recognize them by what they believe and how they live. What you believe is the way you will worship. It must be in Spirit and Truth and doesn't require a specific place like it once did for the Jews as the Lord told the Samaritan woman.

74

News Item2/8/14 4:10 PM
Question  Find all comments by Question
John for JESUS wrote:
...I don't believe the Holy Spirit enables people to understand the gospel .... I believe people (in general) can understand the preaching of the gospel in their natural state and as a result of faith they become alive in Christ...
Agreed that the natural man does understand the gospel message, but as 1 Cor 2.14 explains, no natural man will receive the things of the Spirit but will account them foolishness. So my question to you is how does a natural man even begin to receive the things of the Spirit if they have to be spiritually discerned to know and receive them?
73

News Item2/8/14 3:13 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
All 5 points...
I read what "Mourner" said about Psalm 22. I guess that's you? So you believe God wants us to sing the Psalms only? If I inderstand you correctly. I could do without most carnal Christian music, so it wouldn't bother me. However, I don't know that it is commanded. I'm weird, I like church for the preaching of God's word and some of the people. Music not as much.
72

News Item2/8/14 2:53 PM
Farr  Find all comments by Farr
John for JESUS wrote:
No, I'm not an Arminian Baptist. I'm not Arminian because I don't believe the Holy Spirit enables people to understand the gospel by making them spiritually alive first. I believe people (in general) can understand the preaching of the gospel in their natural state and as a result of faith they become alive in Christ.
I suppose that makes you a Pelagian.
From the 5th century?
But the Liberals believe this kind of heresy too - So maybe you are a Liberal.
71

News Item2/8/14 2:44 PM
Jessica Dawson | Canada  Find all comments by Jessica Dawson
John for JESUS wrote:
Jesus was baptized by John's baptism which is different than what Christians practice. Jesus spoke of John's baptism in the past tense because it ended with his ministry.
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. (Matthew 28:19, 20 NKJV)
They are commanded to go and make disciple through the means of baptizing and then teaching. If baptism is just an ordinance, wouldn't it be part of observing all things that Jesus taught? Like the Lord's supper, prayer, etc.
Though the disciples did baptize in water, it only specificly happened to Gentiles. Furthermore, all specific teachings on baptism are of the Holy Spirit
Thank you John for your response, I agree: observing what Jesus taught is paramount, and is in my understanding required in a believer's life -- "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." (John 15:7 KJV).

God bless ~

70

News Item2/8/14 2:22 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Jessica Dawson wrote:
According to the Scriptures, I believe that we are to receive God's Holy Spirit, as well as be baptized into water, in Jesus' Name. Even Jesus Himself was baptized into water by John. Jesus, commanded His disciples to baptize, and the book of Acts relates the disciples baptizing as being into water, in Jesus Name. I believe it is only Jesus Himself Who may baptize believers into The Holy Spirit.
Jesus was baptized by John's baptism which is different than what Christians practice. Jesus spoke of John's baptism in the past tense because it ended with his ministry.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. (Matthew 28:19, 20 NKJV)

They are commanded to go and make disciple through the means of baptizing and then teaching. If baptism is just an ordinance, wouldn't it be part of observing all things that Jesus taught? Like the Lord's supper, prayer, etc.

Though the disciples did baptize in water, it only specificly happened to Gentiles. Furthermore, all specific teachings on baptism are of the Holy Spirit

69

News Item2/8/14 1:59 PM
All 5 points  Find all comments by All 5 points
John for JESUS wrote:
Most children are not blessed to be born into a Christian home. However, they are blessed to have a God who will reveal Himself to them.
Yes, indeed. My parental home was divided. My understanding of a Christian home is to have at least one believing parent and that could still mean a divided home. That is only a a blessing if that one is walking in the Spirit and not the flesh. Even for a 'baptized in the Spirit' Christian, it is possible to walk in the flesh and not the Spirit.

I was reading Gal.5 this morning, the works of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit, it was very helpful. When the men folk were done speaking, I added what I read first to my son, because it was underlined in his bible, that I was reading. Then, with his father's permission I read it to him. I sought the God of all mercy for all the poor sinners in this household (we all qualify). One of our members has terminal cancer, this is very heart searching.

All true Christians must be born again and all born again believers are commanded to walk in the Spirit, and be filled with the Spirit and speak to one another in what I believe is the inspired hymn book of the Infinite Eternal God. Did you read the Psalm 22:22-31 I posted?

68

News Item2/8/14 1:47 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
DCJ49...
By the laying on of hands.

And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s Porch. (Acts 5:12 NKJV)

Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, (Acts 8:17, 18 NKJV)

67

News Item2/8/14 1:30 PM
Jessica Dawson | Canada  Find all comments by Jessica Dawson
John for JESUS wrote:
All 5 points...
I believe Jesus told the disciples to baptize in the Holy Spirit, not water. Reason being, Jesus never gave instructions to baptize with water, but He did teach about the Holy Spirit. [...]
According to the Scriptures, I believe that we are to receive God's Holy Spirit, as well as be baptized into water, in Jesus' Name. Even Jesus Himself was baptized into water by John. Jesus, commanded His disciples to baptize, and the book of Acts relates the disciples baptizing as being into water, in Jesus Name. I believe it is only Jesus Himself Who may baptize believers into The Holy Spirit. May God continually teach us through His Word and Spirit ~ peace!

_____________________________________________________

"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"

~ Matthew 3:16 KJV

"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

~ Acts 10:47 KJV

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

~ Matthew 28:19 KJV

66
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