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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  10/1/2014
SUNDAY, JAN 26, 2014  |  304 comments  |  2 commentaries
Did Jesus Die for All or for Only the Elect? Two Theologians Debate

For whom did Jesus die? For the sins of the entire humanity or only for the elect? This was the topic of a live debate between Messianic Jewish apologist Dr. Michael L. Brown and Alpha and Omega Ministries Director Dr. James White on RevelationTV.com Friday evening.

The issue boils down to what the intention of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was in Christ going to the cross, said White, who heads the Phoenix, Ariz.-based evangelical Reformed Christian apologetics organization, as the debate began Friday at 9 p.m. EST.

"Jesus' death on the cross was a covenantal death," White said. "God deals with His people in the form of a covenant, and the new covenant was established in the blood of Jesus Christ. ... That has a specific audience, and a specific perfecting effect for those for whom it is made. Specifically, Jesus Christ died in behalf of His elect people and that in so doing He ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 304 user comment(s)
News Item2/7/14 5:16 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Jim Lincoln wrote:
Unlimted atonement is limited by election. Calvin's Wayward Children (MP3 file).
Election: Whose Choice?
Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, but limited to those in Christ.
304

News Item2/7/14 3:22 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Unlimted atonement is limited by election. Calvin's Wayward Children (MP3 file).

Election: Whose Choice?

303

News Item2/7/14 3:11 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Question wrote:
Why are they referred to as the "Children of the Kingdom" if they are going to be cast out for their unbelief?
"Cast out", seems to suggest that they were already in the Kingdom, no?
Because they are heirs of the kingdom, but will not inherit it because of their unbelief.
302

News Item2/7/14 12:01 PM
Question  Find all comments by Question
John for JESUS wrote:
I believe the children of the kingdom are the children of Israel.
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. (Romans 9:4, 5 NKJV)
Just because they are heirs of the promises of God according to the flesh, they will not receive those promises because of their unbelief.
That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (Romans 9:8 NKJV)
Why are they referred to as the "Children of the Kingdom" if they are going to be cast out for their unbelief?

"Cast out", seems to suggest that they were already in the Kingdom, no?

301

News Item2/7/14 11:48 AM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Question wrote:
What do you make of Matt 8.11,12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 *****But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness*****: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I believe the children of the kingdom are the children of Israel.

who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. (Romans 9:4, 5 NKJV)

Just because they are heirs of the promises of God according to the flesh, they will not receive those promises because of their unbelief.

That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. (Romans 9:8 NKJV)

300

News Item2/7/14 10:15 AM
Question  Find all comments by Question
John for JESUS wrote:
...If you consider the field the kingdom, then why not the seed, tares, or enemy also? How could you believe Satan will sow seed in the kingdom?
...The seed are sons of the kingdom.
What do you make of Matt 8.11,12

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 *****But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness*****: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

299

News Item2/6/14 6:59 AM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Anti-arminian wrote:
The question should be "Is Jesus' death effective or is it not"?
I'd say it was pretty effective!

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (I John 2:2 NKJV)

By His work of salvation at the cross, Jesus became the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

298

News Item2/6/14 2:13 AM
CAB  Find all comments by CAB
Lurker wrote:
Here's a bit of advice. If you say "you teach stuff that I don't agree with", we'll get along just fine. But when you say "you teach stuff that is unbiblical" I'm going to demand that you prove your accusation or withdraw it.
What's it going to be?
Are you the owner of this forum? I am serious. Or you are just the patroller, the enforcer? You issue warnings and citations? Do you carry a gun? Or you have access to the banning button? Your demands and dire warnings are surreal, and you break posting rules, so if you are trying to keep order and decency here because you are part owner or complete owner of the forum, why do you break the posting rules to be personally insulting as you are, and to hound and threaten people for innocuous innocent remarks?

If you are trying to be a good ambassador for John Calvin, it's not working.

297

News Item2/6/14 12:02 AM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Lurker wrote:
I believe you are right.
But what of the kingdom Jesus promised to those blessed of His Father in the text I quoted? Same as this kingdom?
Mat 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Matt 25:31-46 is the kingdom in the new heaven and earth. Yes, I believe it is the same.
296

News Item2/5/14 11:15 PM
CAB  Find all comments by CAB
Anti-arminian wrote:
The question should be "Is Jesus' death effective or is it not"? Then it would be obvious that he did not die for all. Otherwise, there would be no hell and the JW cult is right.
You assume God gives no free will or choice. But life is a test, not a lottery, and the blood of Christ cleanses and frees from sin addiction to all who repent and turn to Jesus for forgiveness. If every person who ever lived were to turn to Jesus, one drop of his blood would be sufficient to atone for all. If it is only one person or 20 people or a million trillion people, it is enough, a finished and perfect sacrifice, all-sufficient. Also available ongoing after initial salvation to prodigals and those who stumble, to those who hold on to their faith and abide in the vine and work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, assuming they do not commit the unpardonable sin, or die in their sins. The soul that sinneth, it shall die, and sin will without a doubt send us to Hell if we do not repent and overcome.

Have not listened to this debate. I think it would upset me too much to listen to such heresy defending the bloodless atonement, which is the heresy supporting license to sin OSAS antinomianism.

295

News Item2/5/14 11:05 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John for JESUS wrote:
The wheat will go to the new heaven and earth.
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. (Revelation 21:1-3 NKJV)
What do you believe?
I believe you are right.

But what of the kingdom Jesus promised to those blessed of His Father in the text I quoted? Same as this kingdom?

Mat 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

294

News Item2/5/14 10:45 PM
Anti-arminian  Find all comments by Anti-arminian
The question should be "Is Jesus' death effective or is it not"? Then it would be obvious that he did not die for all. Otherwise, there would be no hell and the JW cult is right.
293

News Item2/5/14 10:06 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Lurker wrote:
Let's take your assumption that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are one and the same and put it to the test. You seem to believe that Christians are already spiritual citizens of the kingdom (I'm not contending otherwise, btw) so answer this. If the tares will be cast into the lake of fire at the harvest, where will the wheat go?
And while you're crafting your answer, don't overlook this:
Mat 25:31-46 **inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:**
The wheat will go to the new heaven and earth.

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. (Revelation 21:1-3 NKJV)

What do you believe?

292

News Item2/5/14 8:07 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John for JESUS wrote:
How is Jesus saying His kingdom is not of this world evidence of two? The kingdom of heaven passes away and the lust thereof?
I've already given you one example of the kingdoms being used interchangeably, do you need more examples? There are plenty.
Let's take your assumption that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are one and the same and put it to the test. You seem to believe that Christians are already spiritual citizens of the kingdom (I'm not contending otherwise, btw) so answer this. If the tares will be cast into the lake of fire at the harvest, where will the wheat go?

And while you're crafting your answer, don't overlook this:

Mat 25:31-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, **inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:** Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

291

News Item2/5/14 1:53 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Lurker wrote:
Below you quoted.... John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world.... as proof that the one and only (according to you) kingdom is not the world. On the contrary, it's proof of two worlds (fields, kingdoms) and the one He said was not His is this one:
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven (field, world) suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
1Jo 2:17 And the world (field, kingdom) passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
His kingdom (of God):
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
I don't have the time or inclination to go on and on with you. If your mind is made up, so be it. I'm a monergist so I can accept that and leave it to God.
Good day.
How is Jesus saying His kingdom is not of this world evidence of two? The kingdom of heaven passes away and the lust thereof?
I've already given you one example of the kingdoms being used interchangeably, do you need more examples? There are plenty.
290

News Item2/5/14 12:24 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John for JESUS wrote:
As CAB already pointed out,
Cab is a lost cause and I won't waste my time chasing her rabbit trails but there may be hope for you.

Below you quoted.... John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world.... as proof that the one and only (according to you) kingdom is not the world. On the contrary, it's proof of two worlds (fields, kingdoms) and the one He said was not His is this one:

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven (field, world) suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

1Jo 2:17 And the world (field, kingdom) passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

His kingdom (of God):

Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

I don't have the time or inclination to go on and on with you. If your mind is made up, so be it. I'm a monergist so I can accept that and leave it to God.

Good day.

289

News Item2/5/14 8:47 AM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Lurker wrote:
Mat 13:24-25
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
For anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear, it is painfully obvious that what I wrote and you quoted faithfully conveys the meaning of the biblical text.
A second grader could perceive something as simple as that but not J4J.
“None so blind as those that will not see.”
Matthew Henry (1662-1714)
As CAB already pointed out, Jesus said "The kingdom of heaven is likened...".

He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. (Matthew 13:37-39 NKJV)

If you consider the field the kingdom, then why not the seed, tares, or enemy also? How could you believe Satan will sow seed in the kingdom?

On one of the quotes I showed, you said the seed figures the gospel. That is also wrong. The seed are sons of the kingdom.

288

News Item2/5/14 6:00 AM
CAB  Find all comments by CAB
Lurker wrote:
Mat 13:24-25 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
For anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear, it is painfully obvious that what I wrote and you quoted faithfully conveys the meaning of the biblical text.
A second grader could perceive something as simple as that but not J4J.
“None so blind as those that will not see.” Matthew Henry (1662-1714)
Jesus said, the Kingdom of Heaven is "likened" unto. There are many such parables to teach us how to value and to find Heaven. Jesus never taught the kingdom of Heaven is here on earth. He plainly said my kingdom is NOT of this earth. This parable of the wheat and the tares is to teach there are fake believers among the real, planted by Satan, and that we leave the fakers to grow among the wheat rather than root them out lest some of the real wheat be injured in the process of rooting out the weeds.

In Heaven Satan will not be sowing any tares: Satan will be in H-E-L-L, where the tares will be also.

Posting rules on rude insults are violated by Calvinists against the few Bible believers posting.

287

News Item2/5/14 1:59 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John for JESUS wrote:
You keep teaching that the field in Jesus' parable is the Kingdom of Heaven and that Satan put them there. Not!
Mat 13:24-25
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

For anyone who has eyes to see and ears to hear, it is painfully obvious that what I wrote and you quoted faithfully conveys the meaning of the biblical text.

A second grader could perceive something as simple as that but not J4J.

“None so blind as those that will not see.”
Matthew Henry (1662-1714)

286

News Item2/4/14 11:58 PM
John for JESUS | ATL  Find all comments by John for JESUS
Lurker wrote:
If you say "you teach stuff that I don't agree with", we'll get along just fine. But when you say "you teach stuff that is unbiblical" I'm going to demand that you prove your accusation or withdraw it.
Lurker said:

The devil sowed them in the kingdom unawares while the watchmen slept.

Tares sowed among the wheat. Wheat sowed in the field. Field is the kingdom of heaven. Amazing, eh?

the seed figures the gospel; so it is equally elementary to deduce that the field is the kingdom.
-------
You keep teaching that the field in Jesus' parable is the Kingdom of Heaven and that Satan put them there. Not!

The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. (Matthew 13:38 NKJV)

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” (John 18:36 NKJV)

It doesn't get more unbiblical than teaching contrary to Jesus.
------
Lurker said:

You do understand that the two are not the same, I hope.
-------
Two different kingdoms? No. Mark says kingdom of God and Matthew says kingdom of heaven for the same kingdom.

285
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