John Piper Talks John MacArthur's Strange Fire Conference; Pursuing Gifts of Prophecy and Speaking in Tongues
John MacArthur during his anti-Charismatic Strange Fire conference last month said that he believes fellow Christian theologian John Piper's "openness to modern charismatic gifts is an anomaly" and may inadvertently lend support to an aspect of Christianity he finds unbiblical.
MacArthur, expanding on those comments with evangelical Christian blogger Tim Challies earlier this month, mentioned D.A. Carson, Wayne Grudem and Piper as men who he loves as "as co-workers in the ministry of the gospel" but expressed concern that their openness to the charismatic gives the movement weight.
"My major concern is that their openness to the issue unwittingly gives the whole movement an aura of theological credibility that it does not deserve," said MacArthur, pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, Calif....
The disciples had all they needed for salvation before Pentecost, but then they were clothed on high to bring the gospel to the world...
we have all we need, but we still gather together with others for a fresh pouring out of God's grace every week. today is the day of salvation. today I praise the Lord, but I will still meet with belivers for a fresh pouring of God's grace in prayer and bible study. There is something about being obedient to the Spirit that gives us a fresh pouring of grace to do His work. THis is the need of the suffering church. And I believe that God blesses the suffering church in ways that the prosperous church can not understand...
Dolores L wrote: I never realized the Holy Spirit actually lived within me.
Ah yes, this is a most wonderful thing, that Christ dwells in us by his Spirit.
And if you have received Christ, you are complete, nothing lacking, as the text below shows:
Colossians 2:6-10 KJV 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.
John UK, I think you are right the maturing of a Christian is a process and some mature faster than others. I never realized the Holy Spirit actually lived within me. You see I was raised in a Baptist church and never heard much if anything about the Holy Spirit giving us power to live the christian life until I started reading Acts but anyway I still love the Lord the same as when I was younger. I know everybody that gets saved has to have been given the Holy Spirit or we couldn't live the Christian life.My mother was a much deeper Christian than my mother-in-law ever was and husband was closer to my mother than his own mother if you can believe that. So there you go.
Happy Thanksgiving, Dorcas, Penny and don't eat too much. This is a special day with family and friends to celebrate and remember the biessings of God since the day Columbus discovered America until now.
Dorcas wrote: Thank-you John UK for your response to my question.
Yes Dorcas, I think what I was trying to feebly say, is summed up in this text:
2 Peter 1:1-3 KJV 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power **hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness**, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.
If he has given us "all things", then there is nothing left to seek, except to apply what he has given us in a godly life, along with all that goes with it.
It is here that I believe the charismatics have their doctrine incorrect, dividing Christians into Spirit-baptised and all the rest.
I'm sure you know of other NT verses which speak the same thing, that our born again experience is far greater than we ever imagined. After all, it is Christ, by his Spirit, indwelling and transforming the sinner into a saint.
Dolores, thank you for your testimony, especially of how this experience took out timidity and gave you witnessing power. This is what I call the Acts 1 experience of the Holy Ghost.
I believe that all Christians (born again of the Spirit) have this witnessing power from conversion onwards, if they will but exercise it.
I also believe that all Christians will experience God on a deeper level subsequent to conversion. I'm not thinking of emotional experiences, but a deeper spiritual experience. This would be normal Christian maturing.
But when it comes to theology, and correct doctrine which states clearly what an experience is, I find that in the NT, subsequent to the changeover period, every Christian possesses everything they need for life and godliness. This means that an imagined experience today which appeared to provide that "something missing", actually was just a manifesting of something that was there all the time.
For eg. A new believer feels shy about going out with his church to give some tracts or give a testimony in the open-air. He thinks he must wait for the "second blessing" before even attempting it. But if he was to go out after praying much for help of the Holy Ghost, he will (I guarantee it) have all that he needs to witness to the world.
These last posts by Dorcas, Penny and john UK is how I believe about the Holy Spirit which I experienced in 1965. It was different from my salvation experience. I was a weak Christian ( like Peter) but after this experience, like Peter and the others I felt closer to God than ever. I was no longer shy about witnessing as a matter of fact my sister told me that people lose their mind over religion. My mind was more sound than hers because in her world the things that mattered most was material things and having affairs to make her happy. My mother could not understand me either and felt no need to partake of this experience but no worry there because she was a deep Christian and loved the Lord. But this all happened long ago and I don't know anything about the newer charismatics. I heard David Wilkerson preach against churches giving false manifestism of the spirit by slithering on the floor and hissing like a snake and he cried because of it, ugh I wish I had the green face to put on here or purple, wharever.
Dorcas wrote: Penny/John UK not to but in on your conversation....but we had heard just recently from a pastor friend of ours that Mr. Jones had become charismatic toward the end of his life do you have any info concerning that?
Hi Dorcas, if the article Penny put up was anything to go by, the good doctor surely did believe in the operation of every gift mentioned in the NT, with the separate baptism with the Spirit being necessary to impart these gifts.
Penny/John UK not to but in on your conversation....but we had heard just recently from a pastor friend of ours that Mr. Jones had become charismatic toward the end of his life do you have any info concerning that?
penny wrote: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/biographies/a-passion-for-christ-exalting-power this link regards Lloyd-Jones teaching on the Baptism of the Spirit, if you are interested. He taught a separate Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Many examples from preachers that we continue to follow today. The gifts seem to him kind of a secondary thing, what matters is being empowered on high for the sanctified life and evangelism, and warns against focusing on them. have a great day.
Thank you Penny.
Yes, Taffy held some strange view that a genuine Christian could go all his or her life without ever being baptised with the Spirit. I wonder what the Lord was thinking of.
But his main point, as I now see, was that spiritual gifts in their abundance, would be poured out upon all, when revival came, and all believers were baptised with the Spirit. But this revival was in the sovereign purposes of God, and sadly, Taffy never did see the very thing he was teaching about.
Ooer, perhaps something wrong there?
And somehow, I think he would have given the current charismatic churches short shrift, because that nonsense and deception and pseudo-conversions was not what he was talking about.
Chalky White wrote: John Why does the Lord encourage people to rip off..
I am operating with the assumption that it is not your wish to twist the Scripture. Parables are stories with a point, just like the one you referenced, the interpretation is given by our Lord at the end of the parable. We don't make theology out of the details of the parable, if we did we would have God being an unjust judge, having a wife and kids that go to sleep at night and don't want to be disturbed, and our evangelistic efforts would be simply be grabbing a packet of seeds called the Word of God (I am sure somebody manufactures them) and going out and throwing the seed on the ground.
Furthermore in the parable you site, the steward was not out of a job when he called in the creditors, so he was not defrauding his boss, he was authorized to do that. Note his boss didn't cry foul but commended him for the preparation he made ahead of losing his job.
There is a hermeneutic to rightly interpreting parables and the internet is an excellent source of research for you there. I would trust your discernment as you found the information.
this link regards Lloyd-Jones teaching on the Baptism of the Spirit, if you are interested.
He taught a separate Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Many examples from preachers that we continue to follow today. The gifts seem to him kind of a secondary thing, what matters is being empowered on high for the sanctified life and evangelism, and warns against focusing on them.
penny wrote: John UK, I have a copy of Lloyd Jones right here, "The Baptism and Gifts of the Holy Spirit" -- he preaches straight from the NT as his basis. "our greatest danger, I feel today, is to quench the Spirit. This is no age to advocate restraint; the church today does not need to be restrained, but to be aroused, to be awakened, to be filled with a spirit of glory, for she is failing in the modern world." p81 "The baptism with the Spirit is always associated primarily and specifically with witness and testimony and service." p81
Yes, that is all mighty fine, I do not have a problem with that. But what does he say about the "sign gifts"? _____________
Dolores, on these threads there will be folks of vastly differing opinions, some Christian some not Christian, some right some wrong. If any of us are caused to think deeper about a subject, then that is good. You'll find that in pentecostal circles, they believe in a two tier Christianity: those that have and those that have not. Personally, I believe that sort of thinking dishonours the Lord in his work of salvation. (We all have.) ____________
Chalky White, you've lost me, what on earth are you talking about?
John UK, I have a copy of Lloyd Jones right here, "The Baptism and Gifts of the Holy Spirit" -- he preaches straight from the NT as his basis.
"our greatest danger, I feel today, is to quench the Spirit. This is no age to advocate restraint; the church today does not need to be restrained, but to be aroused, to be awakened, to be filled with a spirit of glory, for she is failing in the modern world." p81
"The baptism with the Spirit is always associated primarily and specifically with witness and testimony and service." p81