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THURSDAY, APRIL 24, 2014 | TIPS Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
COVER Page ALL News CHOICE VIDEOS User COMMENTS
SUNDAY, SEP 1, 2013| 70 comments| 1 commentary
How the Seeker-Sensitive, Consumer Church Is Failing a Generation

The millennial generation's much-talked-about departure from church might lead those of us over 30 to conclude that they have little interest in Jesus. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Unfortunately, their spiritual coming of age has coincided with many Protestant pastors relying on a consumer business model to grow and sustain their churches. This template for doing church and the millennials' hunger for authenticity has caused an ideological collision.

Seeker-sensitive services originally promised to woo post-moderns back into the fold. Out the stained glass window went the somewhat formal 45-minute exegetical sermon, replaced by a shorter, story-based talk to address the "felt needs" of the congregants while reinforcing the premise that following Jesus would dramatically improve their quality of life. ...


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Seeker-Sensitive Church • 190+
Mohan Krishna | Garfield Ridge Baptist Church
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· Page 1 ·  Found: 70 user comment(s)
News Item9/6/13 1:59 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Keyles wrote:
PS: Theres more.
Well of course there's more, there's always more. Did I miss it? Or are you still digging it out?
70

News Item9/5/13 7:20 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
TB Wrote:
"...he's given us the privilege of representing him! we have nothing to offer and we're just dust & ashes and he still let's us be a part of his glorious work."

Great point...thanks. You know, you got me thinking that maybe I was doing things according to what I wanted to do as opposed to feeling led to do them. Kind of like the spiritual gifts where Charismatics believe they can utilize them at will; mans will, at any time they see fit. I always figured though that no matter what, God wouldn't allow us to look foolish while trying to witness, but I guess it goes back to His will and also studying to show ourselves approved.

69

News Item9/5/13 3:27 AM
TB | up here, eh.  Find all comments by TB
Christopher000 wro+e:
I was Charismatic for a while and am really apprehensive to step out to do anything now...

I've had witnessing situations too that did not turn out as planned and left me wondering... for me it was a matter of coming to terms with not caring what folks would think of me as much as caring that they needed to hear the Gospel. Over time the Lord helped my confidence in him to grow more so I generally don't care anymore about looking like a fool for Christ. Let me encourage you brother to just ask him for opportunities and then rest in what he provides. Think of it this way -- he's given us the privilege of representing him! we have nothing to offer and we're just dust & ashes and he still let's us be a part of his glorious work. And every good thing we have is a gift from him. What an amazing saviour! I'll pray for you Christopher. God bless.

68

News Item9/4/13 3:14 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Keyles wrote:
PS: Theres more.
There's more?

Are we going somewhere?

67

News Item9/4/13 2:44 PM
Keyles  Find all comments by Keyles
I found the answer I was looking for on an interesting site. One which you Baptist may like.

FAQ On the Reformed Baptist view of Baptism

"6.Q. Is the sacrament of baptism a means of grace according to Reformed Baptist theology?

A. Some Reformed Baptists prefer not to use the term "sacrament" due to some negative historical associations. However, Reformed Baptists fully affirm a Reformed view of the sacraments as a means of grace.

The 1689 Confession is admittedly not as clear on this point as it could be. But Keach's Catechism, which was written to clarify the theology of the Confession, makes it pretty clear:

Q. 95. What are the outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of redemption?
A. The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of redemption are His ordinances, especially the Word, Baptism, the Lord's Supper and Prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for salvation. (Rom. 10:17; James 1:18; 1 Cor. 3:5; Acts 14:1; 2:41,42)"

PS: Theres more.

66

News Item9/4/13 2:35 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Keyles wrote:

Blimey I wish I'd never asked.
If you'd been a Christian I'd have reminded you of Christ Jesus and likemindedness.
I asked a simple question from something I have been reading. I was genuinely interested in the Baptist angle on this.
Do you think its old age which is making you so grumpy John?
God Bless.
Well really!

I'm not grumpy!

I'm just annoyed!

Why must you keep changing monikers?

Have you got a funny name or something?

Man, if the Lord calls you from heaven by name, are you sure you'll be able to remember it?

What was the question again?

65

News Item9/4/13 2:23 PM
Keyles  Find all comments by Keyles
John UK wrote:
What makes you think I'm a Baptist? What constitutes a Baptist? I don't go around telling people I'm a Baptist. I don't attend a Baptist Church. Why are you calling me a Baptist?

Blimey I wish I'd never asked.

If you'd been a Christian I'd have reminded you of Christ Jesus and likemindedness.

I asked a simple question from something I have been reading. I was genuinely interested in the Baptist angle on this.

Do you think its old age which is making you so grumpy John?

God Bless.

64

News Item9/4/13 1:50 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Pretty well sums up my thoughts, too.
As for our friend from Canada, it appears from his makeover of TULIP he won't be agreeing with us. Presby will set him straight.
You reckon Presby could do that? Ahhhh... that means I can sit back and watch. I don't really want to get involved in yet another Cal v Arm debate on these threads, we've had 1,489 already.
63

News Item9/4/13 12:24 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Keyles wrote:
A bit off topic. But can I ask you a question as one of the resident Baptists...
What makes you think I'm a Baptist? What constitutes a Baptist? I don't go around telling people I'm a Baptist. I don't attend a Baptist Church. Why are you calling me a Baptist? I suppose you're a Presbyterian and proud of it. Why not call me a Presbterian? Or a Puritan? Or a Pilgrim? Or a Methodist? Or a Congregationalist? Or a Lutheran? Why Baptist? What is this fixation with Baptism and Baptists? Aha, I know, it is because anabaptists are mentioned negatively in all your old documents, and you just love to have a ruff n tumble with anything Baptist. You think you do God service to tell Baptists they are unregenerate heterodoxical upstarts.

However, I did see a thesis once, concerning baptism. It was entitled "All the scripture verses which advocate or command baby baptism".

I asked the chappie who wrote it how long it had taken him. He reckoned that once he'd written the title, that was it - finished!

As for Professors and other Academics, I really don't have much truck with them, as most of them are wrong, like your Prof P.

God gives his grace when HE chooses, not when we choose.

62

News Item9/4/13 11:53 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
shining light wrote:
---
Reading Calvinist theology is like reading the Scriptures. TULIP being an example of this.
---
Sometimes discussions get heavy, and a lighthearted touch of humor is called for. Thank you.
61

News Item9/4/13 11:45 AM
Keyles  Find all comments by Keyles
John UK wrote:
I used to lean a bit towards Amyraldy
A bit off topic. But can I ask you a question as one of the resident Baptists...
Quote;
"On the one side, calling baptism a ‚Äúmeans of grace‚ÄĚ distinguishes the
Reformed tradition from Protestants who conceive of baptism as a mere symbol.
Unlike Baptists and Anabaptists who tend to speak of baptism only as an
‚Äúordinance‚ÄĚ or a ‚Äúmemorial,‚ÄĚ Calvinists have characteristically spoken of baptism
not only as an ordinance but also as a sacrament or a mystery, a rite through
which God applies grace." (Prof R.L.Pratt)

Do you agree with him? How do Baptists connect baptism with grace - or don't you make any connection?

60

News Item9/4/13 10:26 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Well bro, as you know, I used to lean a bit towards Amyraldy. However, I think the Flower Power is an accurate representation of basic Christian doctrine, showing the terrible estate of the lost sinner, the necessary unilateral salvation introduced by the sovereign God, the purpose of the sacrificial and vicarious atonement of God's Son, the omnipotence of God in converting the soul, and the immense love of God in preserving his creature unto eternal life. So yes, I'm quite happy to wear a tulip in my buttonhole, seeing it as Bible Doctrine.
It seems to me that this is the only theology which glorifies God. Also ran's inevitably focus more on the man than on God, and cruelly put man's destiny at his own door, knowing that he will fail and come short of the requirement. Either that, or it will create a whole generation of self-righteous deludes, who comprehend not the depths of the law, and do not ever see how sinful they actually are.
Pretty well sums up my thoughts, too.

As for our friend from Canada, it appears from his makeover of TULIP he won't be agreeing with us. Presby will set him straight.

59

News Item9/4/13 9:34 AM
shining light  Find all comments by shining light
TB wrote:
John 6:27 Labour not
Acts 20:35 labouring
1 Corinthians 3:8-9 planteth
1 Corinthians 4:11-12
1 Corinthians 15:10
1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore
2 Corinthians 5:9
These verses have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Calvinist V Arminian (free will) debate. The Apostle is obviously talking to the regenerated.

Calvinism is Biblical.
Arminian/free will philosophy is man's religious invention no better than the Roman Catholics.

Reading Calvinist theology is like reading the Scriptures. TULIP being an example of this.

There is only two ways of salvation
1. By God. (Calvinism)
2. By God plus man. (RCC, JW, Arminian and all the other free willers)

For the non-Calvinists the statement is made:-
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
= Many church attenders don't realise they fall within this verse.

Man can do NOTHING!!!
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
ALL the glory belongs to GOD.

58

News Item9/4/13 8:44 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
Somewhat like the longer we struggle after stepping into quicksand, the deeper we sink, eh?
Reminds me of the baddy in The Hound of The Baskervilles, who tried to escape across the moor and stepped in a bog. He struggled for a while, but then was never seen again.

I used to live next to a beach in Somerset which had quicksands - highly dangerous. And there were very few signs up to warn holiday-makers about it.

57

News Item9/4/13 7:50 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
John UK wrote:
---
However, I think the Flower Power is an accurate representation of basic Christian doctrine, showing the terrible estate of the lost sinner, the necessary unilateral salvation introduced by the sovereign God, the purpose of the sacrificial and vicarious atonement of God's Son, the omnipotence of God in converting the soul, and the immense love of God in preserving his creature unto eternal life. So yes, I'm quite happy to wear a tulip in my buttonhole, seeing it as Bible Doctrine.
---
Somewhat like the longer we struggle after stepping into quicksand, the deeper we sink, eh?
56

News Item9/4/13 7:04 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
TB Wrote:
Christopher000 -- We can do all things through Christ who dwells in us. Commit it to the Lord, ask for pure motives, then step-out in faith with the goal of honouring Jesus and seeing souls snatched from destruction

I was Charismatic for a while and am really apprehensive to step out to do anything now. I used to step out all of the time in faith, but always made a fool of myself. Like I might try to witness, for example, fully believing that God would put the words I needed Into my mouth, but it never happened and I was always mortified. I stepped up and out to do many other things as well, but was always left feeling and looking very foolish. I never understood it because I had prayed, had no doubts, etc.

55

News Item9/4/13 5:22 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Regarding your opinion of Calvin(ism). What say you of TULIP?
Well bro, as you know, I used to lean a bit towards Amyraldy. However, I think the Flower Power is an accurate representation of basic Christian doctrine, showing the terrible estate of the lost sinner, the necessary unilateral salvation introduced by the sovereign God, the purpose of the sacrificial and vicarious atonement of God's Son, the omnipotence of God in converting the soul, and the immense love of God in preserving his creature unto eternal life. So yes, I'm quite happy to wear a tulip in my buttonhole, seeing it as Bible Doctrine.

It seems to me that this is the only theology which glorifies God. Also ran's inevitably focus more on the man than on God, and cruelly put man's destiny at his own door, knowing that he will fail and come short of the requirement. Either that, or it will create a whole generation of self-righteous deludes, who comprehend not the depths of the law, and do not ever see how sinful they actually are.

54

News Item9/4/13 12:52 AM
TB | up here, eh.  Find all comments by TB
I'm glad you asked Lurker... I'm a 5-point adherent to TULIP principles:

T - Totally dependant on the light He shines upon every man (John 1:9)

U - Unconditionally opposed to those who with polarizing doctrine wrest the scriptures (2 Peter 3:16)

L - Limited in my understanding but growing wiser unto salvation by the scriptures (2 Timothy 3:15)

I - Irresistably involved in an ongoing battle against my mortal enemies (1 John 2:15-17)

P - Persevering in the fight as He has been teaching me (Ephesians 6:10-18)

 

T - Totally dependant on the light He shines upon every man (John 1:9)

U - Unconditionally opposed to those who with polarizing doctrine wrest the scriptures (2 Peter 3:16)

L - Limited in my understanding but growing wiser unto salvation by the scriptures (2 Timothy 3:15)

I - Irresistably involved in an ongoing battle against my mortal enemies (1 John 2:15-17)

P - Persevering in the fight as He has been teaching me (Ephesians 6:10-18)

 

53

News Item9/3/13 10:20 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
TB wrote:
Lurker,
1) Whether or not you are in the vine is the issue. Is it his life flowing into you or your effort?

2) Who can know? Certainly not would be judges.

1) Good answer.

However, all who profess to be Christian claim to be in the Vine. Now what?

2) God knows. But we can know as well..... not by being fruit inspectors but by weighing what comes out of the mouth (Matt 12:37) against scripture, for what comes out of the mouth comes from the heart (Matt 15:18) which is why questions are asked. We need to get to know you and you need to get to know us.

Regarding your opinion of Calvin(ism). What say you of TULIP?

52

News Item9/3/13 6:58 PM
Olde Folderal | Isles of Langerhans  Find all comments by Olde Folderal
"church is relying on a consumer business model"---well, what do you think? the church is a business for many today. just walk into a 'christian book store' or search a website for christian books. listen to many christian radio programs or podcasts and many 'guests' will be authors discussing their latest book. see how many christian websites are promoting something for sale. it is a business!

Now, there is nothing wrong with business--it provides many people a way to live, feed their families, and even pay taxes to keep other people from having to work!

51
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