Police storm homeschool class, take children by force
Four children, ages 7 to 14, have been forcibly taken from their Darmstadt, Germany, home by police armed with a battering ram, and their parents have been told they won‚Äôt see them again soon, all over the issue of homeschooling, according to a stunning new report from the Home School Legal Defense Association.
HSLDA, the world‚Äôs premiere advocate for homeschoolers, said the family of Dirk and Petra Wunderlich has battled for several years Germany‚Äôs World War II-era requirement that all children submit to the indoctrination programs in the nation‚Äôs public schools.
The shocking raid was made solely because the parents were providing their children‚Äôs education, HSLDA said. The organization noted the paperwork that authorized police officers and social workers to use force on the children contained no claims of mistreatment....
Neil wrote: I've been around here long enough to notice that Jim's KJV-bashing usually derails thread debates on other subjects. Folks swallow this bait almost every time. Is this by accident, or design?
Jim Lincoln wrote: The KJV was and is a poor tool for training in English
Jim. Your incessant attacks upon God and His work to communicate the Holy Word can only be described as blasphemous.
God has used the King James Version of His Holy Word for centuries and used it to build His Church and many are the stories of those who learned their language from it.
Modern versions on the other hand appear on the scene when apostate churches flourish. That is an interesting connection. But one fact obvious is that the modern versions with their quote, use of 'modern' languages, haven't made the slightest difference to church increase. Now Jim; Does that tell you something about GOD working with NASB/NIV etc etc? Has HE demonstrated a critical veto of this human presumption? _______
Democratic freedom doesn't seem to have the same definition in Germany as in other western countries. If 'ALL' children MUST submit to the public school system then clearly they do not trust their people. OR They work under a 'Big Brother' government/bureaucracy system. As Orwell's 1984 stated, Winston the hero of the story is "re-educated" to conform to their way only. Is Germany afraid of too much freedom in education and ideas?
Jim Lincoln wrote: The quality of Mexican products, is up for debate,
Not here it isn't, for that subject is irrelevant unless you can prove that product quality is a function of worker literacy. Which I doubt. W. Deming argued that it's largely determined by management, not workers. I'll accept his expert opinion on this rather than your amateur one.
And the KJV is also irrelevant here, as also is your state's political attitude towards homeschoolers. You love going off on Rabbit Trails.
What do you mean by "function?" Define your terms. Illiterates have functioned & do function all the time all over the world, if by this you mean "survive."
The quality of Mexican products, is up for debate, American consumers who pick up various illnesses, from unknowledgeable Mexican workers would really like to argue with you, Neil.
The KJV was and is a poor tool for training in English. As far as training goes, there are government programs to train former factory workers in this country to be more highly skilled labor and to be more employable.
In a child's training as I said the Bible is premier, one hopefully in English besides. By the way, even government in Nebraska isn't hostile to homeschooling, as I pointed to many to watch, NET: Home School Nebraska.
Neil, as much as you rail against the type and amount of education that a person is to get in a modern society, he still is going to need it to function. A secular society needs a secular education (and one as far as I'm concerned not hostile to Christianity ). Should it be better yes, think of the Korean teacher who earns $4,000,000 a year! In this country only football couches get that amount of money.
Jim Lincoln wrote: but the Bible is to expound on what God has revealed to man. It has nothing to do with interchangeable parts, used in rifles, etc. It had nothing to do with metallurgy, etc.
No, later factories needed educated workers, and in fact, educated people really make better soldiers.
Exactly what my point was: Colonial education wasn't about industrial training, which was what you claimed before. It was about the Bible, morality, & basic numeracy & literacy.
Only in our hyper-computerized modern society could one make the argument that educated factory workers are really necessary. Yet the consensus seems to be now that public schools, however well-endowed by socialist largesse, are still failing. But on the other hand, illiterate Mexicans seem to do pretty well making toasters etc. in Maquiladora factories.
All very good, Neil, but the Bible is to expound on what God has revealed to man. It has nothing to do with interchangeable parts, used in rifles, etc. It had nothing to do with metallurgy, etc.
No, later factories needed educated workers, and in fact, educated people really make better soldiers.
As Webster pointed out in his Bible, even in the early 20th century, the King James Version was an inferior tool for learning English. It was barely a passable tool for what I would also say is the most important part of any education--imparting God's Word to and individual.
But, no, I don't think the Amish life-style would have been all that great for early 19th Century America, and is even worse now. A person functioned better then and especially now with good formal, and yes, even informal education.
But ask the typical Israeli what they think of Orthodox Jewish young men who sit around all day studying the Torah, example of problems, Haredi higher education but don't have practical education in modern Jewish society.
Evidently there hasn't been enough education about the history of American education, at least in Nebraska, so I must resort to a source Jim is sure to respect:
"The religious and moral education of youth was paramount in early American schools. The first book in the classroom was the Bible. It was central to a child‚Äôs education, not only for its content, but the way it was used to build skills. Students learned how to read using the Bible. Much of the school day was devoted to memorizing and reciting passages from it, and passages were copied to learn penmanship."
Jim Lincoln wrote: Many of relatives were school teachers
This is your proof for "In the 19th century ... many of the public school teachers were Christian"? What a Non Sequitur! And you didn't even bother to mention whether any of them were or are Christians. Perhaps they don't teach formal logic in Nebraska.
America, or at least New England, had common schools long before the Industrial Revolution; study your history.
And you speak from ignorance about me: Both my parents were public educators; BTW neither have any use for Biblical Christianity. And stop boasting about NB; such regional chauvinism is unseemly, let alone irrelevant.
How do I know, Neil? Many of relatives were school teachers, one even ended up as a County Superintendent. Apparently, your parents never had the benefit of having an education in Nebraska. They would have been able to inform you of such matters.
After Great Britain, the U.S. was one of the first nations to be industrialized--especially the Northern part of it. The Founding Fathers such as Jefferson and Franklin had a high regard for education (Admittedly neither a Christian, but Franklin made it quite public to his atheist friend, Thomas Paine to tread softly in attacking Christianity).
Too bad anyway, Neil, you haven't had quite a few relatives being public teachers.
Jim Lincoln wrote: Neil, several things. In the 19th century especially many of the public school teachers were Christian, so they didn't present an environment hostile to Christianity in the classroom...
It was designed to produce knowledgeable, educated citizens to help keep a modern western --industrialized country functioning
They were? How do you know? I have trouble telling whether living people I meet, as for example on this site, are really regenerate, let alone the dead. And that is irrelevant to my basic point anyway.
Also, you have an anachronism: many American common schools were instituted long before industrialization occurred. Read any account of early colonial schools; I suspect their founders would heartily dissent with your base view of their purposes. As the McGuffey Readers make clear, they wanted schools to produce good, virtuous people, not merely productive ones. And goodness originates where?
There are no rational grounds for your claim that public schools are of "general benefit," even assuming you can get around the question-begging inherent with the word "benefit."
Neil, several things. In the 19th century especially many of the public school teachers were Christian, so they didn't present an environment hostile to Christianity in the classroom. In some parts of the country that is still true. However, I don't remember saying that any public school system was designed to make Christians, especially in the Western countries. It was designed to produce knowledgeable, educated citizens to help keep a modern western --industrialized country functioning.
Why, Neil, we are probably in agreement it's the parents duty to give their children religious instruction. Many parents are competent enough to educate their children to function in that industrialized world, if they want to do that more power to them.
I really don't expect public schools to be centers of Christian training, however, I don't them to be hotbeds of atheistic indoctrination either.
Public schools won't go away, and run even in a secular way, they are a general benefit.
The mistake Christian advocates of common schools have made ever since Martin Luther & the Puritans is trying to do the work of the Holy Spirit: just turn the crank on the public-school sausage machine (suitably doped with Christian ‚Äúspices,‚ÄĚ of course), and out pop believers. Evidently the Holy Spirit is incompetent and must be helped out by extra-biblical inventions.
The obvious duty to learn God's Word does not logically imply the necessity of mass schooling. It's another example of converting Biblical commands (such as evangelism & charity) into legally enforced political agendas like state churches & welfare, respectively.
And Prussian schools (which anyone can learn about online in 5 min.) were primarily concerned with producing obedient tools for the state, not Bible-believers as Luther wanted.
Who is the "you" whom you refer to Kyle? I never said any of these children weren't being well educated at home, if you're talking about the German ones. Of course what the German state is concerned about they will become good Germans first, whatever else--well that's their problem.
I did put up the comment about McGuffey, because I believe he and Horace Mann may have corresponded agreed on principles of public schools. McGuffey did want a do-goodism type of religion. I think the excerpt from the piece on McGuffey explained what was happening in 19th century American public education.
I just hope the German family that came to the U.S. gets to stay here.
Neil, I'll concede since I don't have knowledge of the Prussian school system. A common school system however is a necessity, because countries depend on an educated populace. Even McGuffy Readers which I believe there was thread about here in the recent past, was directed towards the public school system, but of course he and others in the 19th Century weren't hostile to the Christian religion, e.g.,
'McGuffey was remembered as a theological and conservative teacher. He understood the goals of public schooling in terms of moral and spiritual education, and attempted to give schools a curriculum that would instill Presbyterian Calvinist beliefs and manners in their students. These goals were suitable for early 19th century America, but not for the nations' later need for unified pluralism. The content of the readers changed drastically between McGuffey's 1836-1837 edition and the 1879 edition. The revised Readers were compiled to meet the needs of national unity and the dream of an American "melting pot" for the worlds' oppressed masses. The Calvinist values of salvation, righteousness and piety, so prominent in the early Readers, were entirely missing in the later versions.' excerpt, MG Readers 1836.
Jim Lincoln wrote: it might be slightly later, as this ABC news article pointed out,
I might concede that if they're referring to the whole German Empire or Weimar Republic, but as for Prussia, education was made compulsory by Frederick the Great in 1763. That was the system that so impressed Unitarians like Horace Mann, called the "Father of the Common School movement."
Germany's hostility to homeschooling actually began with the system of compulsory Prussian education, not the Nazis. This is what Horace Mann & other foolish school ‚Äúreformers‚ÄĚ in America sought to emulate.