Apostate Minnesota churches preparing for gay weddings
Karl Starr and Christopher Haug pledged their love for each other on the altar of Central Lutheran Church ‚ÄĒ preparing for the day they will walk into Minnesota history.
The two men will be among the first wave of gay couples to wed legally in a church after Aug. 1, when same-sex couples can start getting married in Minnesota. On Wednesday, Starr and Haug rehearsed their Sept. 14 ceremony at the downtown Minneapolis church with the Rev. D. Foy Christopherson.
‚ÄúWe‚Äôve both grown up Lutheran, and we‚Äôre not willing or ready to give that up ... this is our community,‚ÄĚ said Haug, 56. ‚ÄúA lot of our friends are people we know through church. So we want them to be able to rejoice with us as well.‚ÄĚ...
Thank you John from UK and Unprofitable Servant; your most recent posts are certainly advancing our discussion on prayer: its content, form, and our attitude to God in coming before His throne of Grace. Your posts are helping me immensely; truly edifying. My Spirit's response to¬†Comprehensible Coherence was more positive, though, because if¬†anything, it is the groanings within me that cannot be uttered I believe might be more likely to get through to God more so than vain, repetitive verbal pleas for more of the same. It's probably simply that I need more practice with a more 'formal approach' to prayer. Also, prayer can be largely a personal thing, so some people might be more inclined toward the groanings that cannot be uttered, others toward a more 'formal' approach. I do recognise my need to improve my formal approach. Excellent posts. Thank you.
Thanks for the explanation. I certainly believe that any work of grace in the life of the believer is a work of the Lord (Psalm 87:7). But we are not passive in the work of God in our lives. The Scripture states both for us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and reminds us that it is God that works in us both to will and do of His good pleasure. I certainly don't believe in the let go and let God philosophy. Ezra prepared his heart to seek the Lord. Paul said he would pray in the Spirit in I Corinthians,and all our prayers need to follow that pattern So we both agree all the source of spiritual graces in the life of the believer come from God. Thanks for the reminder. Still would say Romans 8 verse does not apply to every act of prayer except as we are to depend upon the Spirit of God in our praying. For instance,and there are many examples that could be given, James reminds us to ask for wisdom (God knows I need it), I can't say I don't know how to pray as I ought in this matter, I am to humbly petition God for wisdom in faith without wavering. I believe the more we memorize, meditate, and assimilate the Word of God into our lives, the more Scriptural our prayers will become.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: approach the living God in prayer, their attitude of contrition , their abhorrence of sin, their acknowledgement of their own unworthiness, their attempting not to speak hastily, their avoidance of bringing the secular into the sacred, their addressing God in a proper manner and their asking according to His will
Mans sinful approach to the Lord is unworthy and inadequate thus absolutely do we need the Holy Spirit to make all the difference.
The list of spiritual "expertise" above is bordering on the "arrogant" (not insulting you btw) if you assert that it is all possible for the sinner in the presence of the Lord.
Even the "best(?)" of Christians are evil hearted sinners. Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
1Cor 12:11 Paul calls himself 'nothing.' 1Peter 5:5 God gives grace to the humble. and V6 "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:"
Jesus says; "Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
comprehensible coherence wrote: On the "expert" "diction" "elocution" and "articulation" of your prayers .... Remember:- Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
I apologize for not comprehending the point of your post. John UK is talking about how people approach the living God in prayer, their attitude of contrition , their abhorrence of sin, their acknowledgement of their own unworthiness, their attempting not to speak hastily, their avoidance of bringing the secular into the sacred, their addressing God in a proper manner and their asking according to His will. You bring up a verse that talks about when we are so burdened we cannot articulate our desires before God, that the Holy Spirit takes the thoughts and intents of our heart before the throne of grace. Not sure what you are trying to say, my apologies.
On the "expert" "diction" "elocution" and "articulation" of your prayers .... Remember:- Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Now what is it like when you walk into the building where prayer is wont to be made?
Are people readying themselves to come before Almighty God, by the blood of Christ, by a new and living way, consecrated for us through the veil? Is there an air of expectancy, of awe? Is there silence and solemn deliberation? Are people aware of the possibility of death in his presence?
Or is there a general buzz of mundane conversations, the weather, the stocks and shares, the latest news on the TV?
I reckon prayer is far more than announcing, "Dear Lord..." and then coming out with a whole string of requests, and then closing with "Amen".
How many church prayer meetings have a record of things prayed for, and then checking to see if any have been answered? I've not seen any. It's all a ritual. I could make a CD of what people will pray for, coz it is so repetitive. Just play the CD, why leave the house? God is never surprised by what people pray for as he's heard it a million times a year, every year for centuries.
But you never see these folks weeping because of unanswered prayer - to them it is just form, ritual, a religious thing you do when you attend church. Mid-week, every week, week in week out.
Andrew wrote: John from UK; Yes, in your last two posts, you are putting my pleas into a story. Your second to last post reiterates what I have been trying to get across; particularly that our prayers can most certainly be an affront to God. We must be very careful what we pray for, for the reasons you espouse. Thank you for your wisdom in this matter.
I sure wish I had more wisdom concerning prayer and prayerfulness. But the Lord teaches us bit by bit, and little by little.
Andrew, I greatly appreciate your posts, and find a kindred spirit. I know not your doctrinal position, but I do know that you hold God higher than many. See what you think to this:
It is said that in the OT economy, the great high priest, when he approached the Holy of Holies with blood, he had ropes tied to his feet, so that if, when he met with God and poured out the blood offering at the mercy seat, he perished, then they could at least pull him out, as no-one else was permitted to enter such a holy place.
Now in Hebrews, we are accounted all priests, and all can approach unto God by the new covenant blood of Christ, to the spiritual mercy seat in the spiritual Holy of Holies.
John from UK; Yes, in your last two posts, you are putting my pleas into a story. Your second to last post reiterates what I have been trying to get across; particularly that our prayers can most certainly be an affront to God. We must be very careful what we pray for, for the reasons you espouse. Thank you for your wisdom in this matter. Michael: You need not fear using the descriptor of "freak shows" or even "tavern shows" for the Pentecostal Movement.¬†I am certainly not part of that freak show, but maybe Nameless is? (Which Nameless, I don't know). I agree that that is one 'weird spirit', and anything but Holy. "We desperately need real church-wide prayer meetings in our churches." What will be the focus and content of our prayers? What will we be asking of God? To put a stop to the inevitable; to ask Him to reverse His will? Perhaps we ought simply ask that His will be done, and it is done anyway. We are seeing God's will being done; perhaps we just find it hard to believe that.
........before the foundation of the world. By the Lord himself!
And what is the Lord Jesus doing in his life? He is leading him bit by bit towards repentance and faith.
And what is the church doing in his life? Er.......not a lot.
Maybe nothing at all.
So Auntie Nellie-Nice person gets all my attention, and Zak gets zilch. But who is in heaven in eternity? It is Zak, for he is the one who obeyed the gospel call and turned to the Lord in repentance, believing in Christ with all his heart.
Now as I see it, there is something wrong here. How much opportunity should we give to any one sinner? Should we year in year out keep witnessing to the same one? Well if circumstances dictate, maybe yes. But our goal should always be the obedience of the Great Commission to make Christ known everywhere, so that every creature will have heard at least once that Christ saves sinners by his death on a cross and glorious resurrection, and that he is coming again to take all his flock to be with him in heaven.
Andrew wrote: Sorry, Nameless, it was Michael who was PERHAPS implying that I might have some 'weird spirit'.
Andrew NOT at all. I used the word "weird" because I've been around some Charismatic/Pentecostal types who are deluded to imagine the (I hate to use the word) "freak" shows in Tornoto, Pensacola (or is it Brownsville), on TBN are of the Holy Spirit, and Who btw will give even severely strick fundementalists an enormous gently humble love and compassion for the worst of sinners in their conversation, actions and witness to them.
The Value of Sinners, Prostitutes, and Drunkards http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mZsHUs7UsE
All that said, I will stand by my comments that we desperately need real church-wide prayer meetings in our churches.
It's Just A Prayer Meeting http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=62010654482
Nameless wrote: This is part of the reason I left the ELCA church, that I was raised in, a long time ago. Ordaining women was the first biblical error that i recall. The Lutherans were taught very little of what's in the Bible, and just go along with whatever their synod tells them to do. They perish for lack of knowledge.
The ELCA is the only Lutheran synod that supports homosexuality and the ordination of women as ministers. All the other Lutheran synods state that homosexuality is an abomination and don't ordain women as ministers.
Aha! All very interesting comments on the subject of prayer. And I find some empathy with all of them.
Have we all come to our individual thoughts on this by the word? Or by the Spirit? Or maybe by both?
US has brought forth scriptures and a biblical argument, in his ususal style. We need to take heed according to God's word. We are all learning and hopefully groaning as we go deeper into understanding the will of God. After all, who would willingly do something contrary to God's will? (Note, Peter did so ignorantly when he said, "Not so, Lord.")
I believe our prayers can be an affront to God. He has a will, he has decrees, and we want him to change those for something which WE want. In other words, we want to be God, and thus tell the actual God what to do (as our slave), even though Jehovah is perfect and does always what is right, and we are fallen and sinful men who often do what is wrong. This is a similar position to Lucifer when he kept not his estate, desiring himself to be God.
For eg. Every night I pray for Auntie Nellie-Nice whom I love and want to be saved. I feed her with tracts, give her a Bible, and etc. But down the street is Zak, a slimy drug addict, and I never go near him - he's dangerous, after all! However, Zak is chosen in Christ.......
This is part of the reason I left the ELCA church, that I was raised in, a long time ago. Ordaining women was the first biblical error that i recall. The Lutherans were taught very little of what's in the Bible, and just go along with whatever their synod tells them to do. They perish for lack of knowledge.
Andrew are you saying that we should give up? That Gods people should stop praying for even one soul that could be saved. God didnt destroy a city because Abraham begged God to save atleast one righteous man. Should the righteous or ignorant be placed aside with the wicked? We are talking about souls! And you simply want to walk away and say there a lost cause? Didn't not Jesus save us when we were a lost cause. What if God quit on you before u were saved. No I refuse to walk away and I refuse to stop praying and speaking to the lost, deceived, and ignorant! Such a thought will never enter my min so long as I breathe. I have seen suffering and people hurting and die never knowing God. Ill go to my grave know I served Gods will by going out of my way in prayer, fasting and speaking for people who don't know God. If God saves doesn't he? If so then why should I simply quit?
Nameless; for my part, God has shown me that not only is all this ‚Äėgay‚Äô rights stuff so completely out of my control, but the entire world is completely out of control (it appears to be, but God is at the helm), that for my part, the only prayer that I can up with is: ‚ÄúCome, my Lord Jesus Christ, come quickly now.‚ÄĚ No amount of praying for the world is going to help, and every apostate church is worldly. This present world is destined for God‚Äôs ‚ÄúDELETE‚ÄĚ button; better off putting our prayers and energies into preparing for that. These ungodly people have no idea what‚Äôs coming their way, or maybe they do, but they remain in unrepentant rebellion.