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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  8/29/2014
Choice News MONDAY, JUN 17, 2013  |  132 comments
'Cessationists Are Wrong' About Speaking in Tongues, Says Pastor Mark Driscoll

Pastor Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, Wash., recently spoke on the gift of tongues as described in the New Testament as part of his "Acts: Empowered for Jesus' Mission" sermon series. The conservative Reformed, or New Calvinist, Christian minister laid out his arguments as to why he believes the gift of speaking in tongues did not end with Jesus' apostles in the first century.

Cessationists, such as influential pastor and traditional Calvinist John MacArthur, believe that 1 Corinthians 13:8 and other Biblical passages indicate that the divine ability to speak in other languages or an unknown tongue (glossolalia) ended with the apostles' deaths, as did prophetic revelations and faith-healings through individuals. Some Christians, however, believe that these Holy Spirit-inspired gifts will continue until Christ's return.

In the sermon excerpt shared online this week by Mars Hill ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 132 user comment(s)
News Item7/5/13 3:57 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Jim Lincoln wrote:
John, U.K., you have the strangest dreams! I don't know what you be eating before you go to bed, but stop it!
Ha! No, it wasn't really a dream, but a fairly accurate analysis of how someone without preconceptions would appraoch the forming of a church on the principles found in the NT. It was designed to show that those who purport to do such a thing are only being half-hearted in their own approach, and in many things are cessationist themselves. The charismatic churches are high on hype but low on real biblical application. And so you get a little bit of tongues-singing (all orchestrated by the worship band, of course), you get a prophecy or two (neither of which is hearkened unto as the word of God to his people), you get claimed healings (without the symptoms disappearing), you have a pastor instead of an apostle (they've ceased, after all), and you're told to plant a lot of dosh (to get a lot more dosh back).

So it was a serious but tongue-in-cheek look at the weird and wonderful world of non cessationists. My conclusion was that so few people actually spend time studying scripture, which is why so many church structures have been invented over the years.

132

News Item7/5/13 2:47 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
John, U.K., you have the strangest dreams! I don't know what you be eating before you go to bed, but stop it!

Gil Rugh said or, wrote:
The giftedness to apostles, speaking in tongues, prophecy, and miracles were necessary as the early church was being established. With the completion of the canon of Scripture those gifts ceased.

The Spirit is the member of the Godhead who dispenses spiritual gifts for the common good of the local church members. The gifts are not primarily to benefit the individual gifted with them, but are for the edification of the body by serving one another.

Serving in the body is then primarily done in the realm where God has dispensed a measure of faith. The measure of faith being that special ability to trust God and rely upon Him in the use of that giftedness to serve the body.

summary for, Use and Purpose of Tongues, Prophecy, and Serving.
131

News Item6/26/13 12:19 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
About a hundred years ago, a man put a KJB in a huge bottle and set it adrift from a beach in South Africa.

A cannibal living on Niue Island in the South Seas discovered it a year later and removed the Bible, wondering what it was.

When he opened its pages, he found he could read it, though he never knew any English. He read the NT, believed it, and baptised himself, because there was no church there.

After a year spent reading the NT, he decided to make a church, and appointed himself the apostle of the church. He then wanted to find some prophets who could tell the future, so he preached the gospel to all his friends, and made several converts, some of whom could tell the future, some could heal the sick, and some others who could perform miracles, and he made his church with these.

He then built a synagogue and said we will have worship meeting every Saturday. He understood from the NT pattern that everyone should take part in meeting, with some singing psalms, some prophesying, and some speaking in tongues. He himself spoke from his Bible and without any notes.

The women he separated in church, and told them to keep quiet and stop ruffling their head-coverings.

And then I woke up, and behold, it was but a dream.

130

News Item6/26/13 10:10 AM
jpw  Find all comments by jpw
"Anyone who is prepared to say that all this ended with the apostolic age, and that there has never been a miracle since the apostles, is making a most daring statement. Not only is there nothing in the Scripture to say that all these miraculous gifts had to end with the apostolic age; the subsequent history of the church, it seems to me, gives the lie direct to this very contention."

Martyn Lloyd Jones, "The Baptism and Gifts of the Holy Spirit"

129

News Item6/26/13 7:14 AM
William S. Sutherland | Houston, Texas  Find all comments by William S. Sutherland
Driscoll is a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing and anything he says should be suspect. he is not to be trusted. his blasphemous comments about Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ should be enough for any true believer to stay as far away as possible from this lying spirit. See for yourself:

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/driscoll_michels.pdf

128

News Item6/25/13 1:56 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
John UK, very excellent comments. What is amusing about so-called modern day prophets, is that they can also make errors and prophecy, but are still considered prophets.
Temporary Gifts the Spirit Gave
.

1 Corinthians
23 If therefore the whole church should assemble together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and let one interpret;
28 but if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.---NASB

In other words, even if you believe the gift of tongues is still present keep your mouth shut in church.

127

News Item6/25/13 12:37 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
jpw wrote:
we need a biblical analysis of these chapters, not a cutting away...
JPW, you must go to an interesting church if you have not "cut away" some verses:

1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Maybe your leaders have found Peter's tomb and resurrected him to lead the church, eh?

In the first church I attended, I was taught that the role of prophet was no longer valid, as God's revelation was complete, and no-one could now foretell things future. I can well imagine the mish-mash if that teaching was untrue. However, I was also taught that "prophetic preaching" was now in operation, where the Spirit "took up" the preaching, and brought forth things meaningless to the preacher which nevertheless meant a great deal to the hearer. The church was greatly influenced by Westminster Chapel, London, where Dr Martin Lloyd-Jones was installed. Folks were often convicted of sin and converted through such preaching.

So to say that cessationists do not have any involvement with the Spirit is very untrue and misrepresenting. The Spirit is crucial, giving the increase.

126

News Item6/25/13 11:16 AM
jpw  Find all comments by jpw
MH -- I did not read your posts before posting. It was interesting that you too saw that without prophetic teaching, you get "easy believism". Good day!
125

News Item6/25/13 10:59 AM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameContact via emailFind all comments by Michael Hranek
jpw wrote:
I am to base my understanding of manifestations of the Holy Spirit on what holy rollers on tv do?
jpw
In my words your passion for the Lord, for His truth is a blessing to me. As it seems we are living in a time when men want to reintrepret Scripture to say what they want to make it out to say. One might lay out the Truth line by line, rightly divided and still some would refuse to accept what is right there in front of them. With some we just have to accept they are willfully ingnorant, for me that would very much include the Charismatic "circus church performers", and some, let's call them hyper-cessationists who behave as if all supernatural doings of God have ceased, at least until the rapture. And not let such difference sabotage us from seeking the Lord Jesus Christ, the knowledge of God's will for us and the Power of the Holy Spirit to be used as a witness of Christ.

very much thankful for brothers and sister who are seeking hard after God in prayer and the study of His word

124

News Item6/25/13 10:27 AM
jpw  Find all comments by jpw
I am to base my understanding of manifestations of the Holy Spirit on what holy rollers on tv do?

Isn't that counterproductive?

Does everyone who is cessationist on here actually believe that when Paul spoke in tongues it looked like the false signs and wonders on tv?

we need a biblical analysis of these chapters, not a cutting away, in order to understand what the real thing was.

I'm having trouble locating it, but Pastor Sam Storms has an actual line by line look at these verses. Will try to post.

In 1 Cor 14, Paul is actually downplaying the role of tongues in a corporate sense because it edifies the indl and not others around. Prophecy is the exhortation and admonishment of the people and is desperately needed today. An example might be someone who has discerned that a gentleman is drinking heavily and is admonished that this will cause great harm to his family. This, of course, should be done privately, other issues from 14 could be public such as praying about our participation in abortion and a need to repent.

So without prophecy, we are left with exhortation alone, feel good-ism.... does that sound like any churches today?

I'm not saying I have all the answers and am resisting the urge to go verse by verse, because it shouldn't come from me.

123

News Item6/25/13 7:27 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
I wonder. If the Lord was to take out all the "ministries" which have given out prophesies which never came to pass, how many best-selling paperback authors and so-called preachers would disappear off the scene? Maybe then, people would take these things seriously instead of playing with them like they were toys, or a means of gaining notoriety.
122

News Item6/24/13 7:27 PM
Mic76543 | Kyoto, Japan  Contact via emailFind all comments by Mic76543
I have never seen a tongues witness in any church that had anything to do with evangelism. If tongues have not ceased, where are the souls being saved from the gospel given in a foreign language? I have many charismatic friends, but NONE of them have any message from another language that made a difference in someone understanding the gospel message. NONE ! Why is it not Biblical? Just sounds and looks like baloney to me.
121

News Item6/24/13 6:38 PM
Cessationist  Find all comments by Cessationist
Michael Hranek wrote:
Cessationist
No! Absolutely not! for the most part the present day Modern Pentecostal Charismatic Churches are frightful in their willfull lack of the genuine Bibilcal Gospel, the Biblical ignorance and REAL heresies and hereitcs they harbor. There are some that are contra the modern day ecumenical emergent seeker sensitive purpose driven movements (the same kind of thing infecting modern evangelicalism) that still preach repentance, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, you must be born again to be saved, baptism by immersion for believers only, the Bible is the Holy authoritative word of God we must believe and live by, and holiness, prayer and soul winning the things that in genuine agape love for one another ought to mark any church that knows Christ and seeks to be faithful to Him and make Him known and well worth attending if you find one, even if they don't "speak with other tongues" one solitary single time in their whole lives, quote the WCF or not and welcomed all the outcasts, exconvicts, misfits, wounded failures and the poor of society to come and hear of Jesus Christ
I hope Michael that no one argues that the need for spiritual power is the want of the hour. BUT that is not what this thread is about.
120

News Item6/24/13 3:27 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
Cessationist wrote:
Your conclusion? That pentecostal/charismatic churches are doing better in this respect for possessing what they believe are the biblical gifts?!!
Cessationist

No! Absolutely not! for the most part the present day Modern Pentecostal Charismatic Churches are frightful in their willfull lack of the genuine Bibilcal Gospel, the Biblical ignorance and REAL heresies and hereitcs they harbor. There are some that are contra the modern day ecumenical emergent seeker sensitive purpose driven movements (the same kind of thing infecting modern evangelicalism) that still preach repentance, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, you must be born again to be saved, baptism by immersion for believers only, the Bible is the Holy authoritative word of God we must believe and live by, and holiness, prayer and soul winning the things that in genuine agape love for one another ought to mark any church that knows Christ and seeks to be faithful to Him and make Him known and well worth attending if you find one, even if they don't "speak with other tongues" one solitary single time in their whole lives, quote the WCF or not and welcomed all the outcasts, exconvicts, misfits, wounded failures and the poor of society to come and hear of Jesus Christ

119

News Item6/24/13 2:38 PM
Cessationist  Find all comments by Cessationist
Michael Hranek wrote:
Cessationist
You actually asked a question that needs just a mite of rewording:
So what happens when the apostles vanish? God is obliged to carry on the witness to confirm the words of an unbelieving, unloving, man-centered church?..
Tongues or not aside - If we are honest modern men and entertainment centered churches dispise any God fearing prophetic ministry (NOT imaginary future telling) call to repentance and obedience to the faith once for all delivered to the sainst.
So tickle our ears with:....
Just don't tell us how badly we've sinned and fallen short of the glory of God
turning what ought to be houses of prayer in houses of singing and entertainment
watering down the Gospel where it is so inoffensive it wouldn't offend a serial killing drug manufacuturing gang boss
just don't get us all identified with that Jewsih carpenter guy, Who preached the Bible, and associated with lepers and prostitutes and died on a cross as if we are supposed to repent of our sins and live for Him or something.
Your conclusion? That pentecostal/charismatic churches are doing better in this respect for possessing what they believe are the biblical gifts?!!
118

News Item6/24/13 2:20 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Well, Mike, there is The Inadequacy of Moralism!

Ah, you really got down on the Reformed people, though I really doubt that Reformed Churches are guilty of that. I would say it's the Arminian Churches. However, too many Churches no matter what their inclination is about Calvinism & Arminanism Contrasted can get a little too interested in a modern presentation.

But, your words of warning are worth noting no matter in which camp one might be in.

Gil Rugh said or, wrote:
The claim to God's provision of salvation is by faith alone, in Christ alone. By faith the sinner is absolved of all guilt and declared righteous by God. Neither circumcision, baptism, nor any other religious practices are necessary for salvation.

Genuine saving faith begins the moment when the gospel is believed. Those who possess this faith then live a different life and lifestyle that gives observable evidence of their inner transformation.

Every act of obedience makes a statement of faith in the God being obeyed.

Summary for Results of Saving Faith
117

News Item6/24/13 1:56 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
Cessationist wrote:
So what happens when the apostles vanish? God is obliged to carry on the witness to non-existent apostles?
Cessationist
You actually asked a question that needs just a mite of rewording:

So what happens when the apostles vanish? God is obliged to carry on the witness to confirm the words of an unbelieving, unloving, man-centered church?
(or at least something like that)

Tongues or not aside - If we are honest modern men and entertainment centered churches dispise any God fearing prophetic ministry (NOT imaginary future telling) call to repentance and obedience to the faith once for all delivered to the sainst.

So tickle our ears with:
moralistic therapudic deism
easy believism
reformed theology
Just don't tell us how badly we've sinned and fallen short of the glory of God

turning what ought to be houses of prayer in houses of singing and entertainment
watering down the Gospel where it is so inoffensive it wouldn't offend a serial killing drug manufacuturing gang boss

just don't get us all identified with that Jewsih carpenter guy, Who preached the Bible, and associated with lepers and prostitutes and died on a cross as if we are supposed to repent of our sins and live for Him or something.

116

News Item6/24/13 12:41 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
Cessationist wrote:
If you are right in what you say, can you explain Heb 2.4?
Dear Cessationist
JPW's post pointed to something good in the early church, and even you if you would step back take notice of what you yourself posted you might begin to see it better as well.

These early churches, emphasized (when they were "on track") the Lord Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Paul reminded a church with serious problems of that. The writer of Hebrews would make it a key point in his letter:

Hebrews 8:1
Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

So I see no problem whatsoever in the early church, among genuinely born again regenerated believers, men and women who knew and experienced the filling of the Spirit and the gifts are at His will, not ours, far better than we do today showing evidence of this reality in that they

Glorified the Lord Jesus Christ, and yes, spoke of the ministry of the Spirit as necessary. People who insisted on the filling of the Spirit, Acts 6:1-6 is a good example, and tongues isn't even mentioned, and known for their agape love of one another

"Church" the sophisticated of today shun big time

115

News Item6/24/13 12:15 PM
Cessationist  Find all comments by Cessationist
Michael Hranek wrote:
JPW
Amen! and Amen!
And all them churches were, in a word, Pentecostal. Even when some of them had need of serious correction that they would have meetings that were decent and in order. But yes, the early churches in the book of Acts were what we would call today 'Pentecostal', certainly genuinely Spirit filled. (or maybe some would say Baptist as well).
Quite different than the sickening pretending of modern Charismatic/Word of Faith and sadly many Pentecostal false teachers of today.
If you are right in what you say, can you explain Heb 2.4?

Heb 2

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

God bearing the apostles witness with signs, wonders, miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost?

So what happens when the apostles vanish? God is obliged to carry on the witness to non-existent apostles?

You and jpw sure know more than the Bible does, and that's a shame.

114

News Item6/24/13 11:14 AM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
jpw wrote:
I see no preferable model to today's church than the New Testament church as directly taught by the great Apostles.
JPW
Amen! and Amen!
And all them churches were, in a word, Pentecostal. Even when some of them had need of serious correction that they would have meetings that were decent and in order. But yes, the early churches in the book of Acts were what we would call today 'Pentecostal', certainly genuinely Spirit filled. (or maybe some would say Baptist as well).

Quite different than the sickening pretending of modern Charismatic/Word of Faith and sadly many Pentecostal false teachers of today.

113
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