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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | SA News
FRONT PAGE  |  6/30/2015
THURSDAY, APR 4, 2013  |  112 comments
Bible shaped America, historians at forum say

Scripture has had a tremendous influence on the rights of citizens throughout American history, two historians said at a recent Washington, D.C., forum.

"The Bible permeated both private expressions and the public announcements of those who shaped the new nation and its political institutions," said Daniel Dreisbach, an author and a law professor at American University.

The Founding Fathers were not as religiously conventional as history textbooks make them out to be, he said.


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
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· Page 1 ·  Found: 112 user comment(s)
News Item4/12/13 9:00 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
You've gotten to the bottom of David's stumbling block. There has always been two covenants, one requiring the love of God (faith expressed) which justifies and the other requiring love of neighbor (good works expressed) which sanctifies.
Jesus came in the form of the first covenant and this is what He taught:
Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John reaffirms:
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Two covenants.... two fulfillments. Justification and sanctification.
You've given this business a lot of thought, Lurker.
112

News Item4/12/13 8:36 AM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
David Preston wrote:
You and Observer are both Dispensationalist. You believe in the Old and New Testaments.
They might believe they can ignore the OT, but thats an aside from the observation that they are dispensationalist which is true from your point of view. Maybe you can fully convert them?

I can see it now, You, Observer and JohnUK all sharing a prison cell in the Vatican NWO detention camp with Yurich as your guard. After 3 years all prisoners will be offered freedom if chipped, at which time you will shift to mid trib mode. Yurich will then test the microchips of those to be freed, as they are paged through the audio of the microchip speaker, they will report to Yurich and be released. During that time you will come running completely naked from the latrine screaming with a long strand of toiletpaper streaming from your bottom to Yurich
JY: "Why are you here? you are not on the list"
Dave: "Im not, whew! for a minute I thought I was lost forever taking the Mark of the Beast"
JY: "What makes you think that? We would have called you through an implant if it were so"

Dave: "I thought that Vatican counsler here yesterday found a way to send me a fax"

111

News Item4/12/13 8:29 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
There is no such thing as a "faith only system", either in the old or new covenant. I think you are mixing up "justification by faith alone" with the practise of godliness.
You've gotten to the bottom of David's stumbling block. There has always been two covenants, one requiring the love of God (faith expressed) which justifies and the other requiring love of neighbor (good works expressed) which sanctifies.

Jesus came in the form of the first covenant and this is what He taught:

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

John reaffirms:

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Two covenants.... two fulfillments. Justification and sanctification.

110

News Item4/12/13 7:36 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
David Preston wrote:
One more thing NO WHERE can you find anywhere before Calvary Jewish people ever believing in a Faith only system!
There is no such thing as a "faith only system", either in the old or new covenant. I think you are mixing up "justification by faith alone" with the practise of godliness.

In the article you posted, OC Jews were to be repentant (thereby choosing to be obedient to God) and their sins were taken care of by sacrifices with confession.

In the NC, Christians are to be repentant and their sins taken care of by a sacrifice with confession.

The only difference is that the OC sacrifices were types of Christ, and therefore could not actually take away sins themselves. But God looked toward the sacrifice of Christ, the antitype.

James explains what true Christianity is, and it is not a "faith only system" but a saving justification by faith alone which works out in the practise of godliness. This "system" has been in operation since Adam sinned, and will still be running at the end of the world.

109

News Item4/12/13 7:04 AM
David Preston | Centreville, VA  Contact via emailFind all comments by David Preston
John UK- Paul is speaking of post Calvary things. The "even so" and "also" apply to the "remnant" the "according" applies to the new remnant not the old remnant. Again the old remnant was chosen by their works. Go look up the old testament passage.

One more thing NO WHERE can you find anywhere before Calvary Jewish people ever believing in a Faith only system! You know why? Because it was not there! Does Josephus talk about this? Any Jewish writings? You would think we could find something? It is also quite obvious that Paul debates Faith only vs. Faith and works. Why? Because that is what the Jews believed and were taught by the Old Testament.

108

News Item4/12/13 4:45 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
David Preston wrote:
JohnUK-Rom. 11:4-6 is making a comparison of Law and Grace.
Let us see the further context:

Romans 11:4-7 KJV
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Paul obviously equates God saying, "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal" with "Even so then at this present time ALSO there is a remnant according to the election of grace".

He then says that in these two examples of a remnant according to the election of grace, it cannot be of works - obviously.

Going further, he says that Israel sought for "righteousness by the law", but found it not, rather they were blinded by God. However, the "election" DID find it, by grace, which comes through faith.

107

News Item4/11/13 10:59 PM
David Preston | Centreville, VA  Contact via emailFind all comments by David Preston
Observer- Of course I am interested.

JohnUK-Rom. 11:4-6 is making a comparison of Law and Grace. The story of the Prophets is a story of a remnant in the midst of sin. A remnant that few knew about. Those Prophets were chosen by God by there works not by faith. The Jewish remnant now is elected by Grace but the one then was works. When Paul says "no more of works," he means no more of works. I took a simple look at it because it is simple. Read Rom. 9 and 10 it is Works vs Faith for context.
As for Rom. 7 and Gal 2 this is very simple. The focus is post-Calvary.
"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived" He was alive when he was innocent. This is a great verse for proving when babies die they go to heaven. When the law comes then you are held accountable for your sin. Great verse!
John you said- "Yep, dispensationalism is up the creek without a paddle, and the falls looming on the horizon."
God help us if this is the case. I know there are many various forms of dispentionalism, but for the most part it is Biblical. You and Observer are both Dispensationalist. You believe in the Old and New Testaments.

106

News Item4/11/13 6:46 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Observer wrote:
Indeed John. Consider:
Romans 7.7-10
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. AND THE COMMANDMENT, WHICH WAS ORDAINED TO LIFE, I FOUND TO BE UNTO DEATH.
David would do well to take note of these verses.
Dispensationalism is a completely erroneous hermeneutic!
Ah yes bro, this is just the sort of thing I was thinking of. "I was alive without the law once". Not actually alive, not spiritually alive, but imagined he was alive through his imagined keeping of the law.

Yep, dispensationalism is up the creek without a paddle, and the falls looming on the horizon.

105

News Item4/11/13 6:37 PM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
John UK wrote:
Aye, until he met the risen Christ he never really understood the depths of the law, and as a proud Pharisee imagined that his works and genealogy were really quite spiffing.
Indeed John. Consider:

Romans 7.7-10
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. BUT SIN, TAKING OCCASION BY THE COMMANDMENT, WROUGHT IN ME ALL MANNER OF CONCUPISCENCE. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. AND THE COMMANDMENT, WHICH WAS ORDAINED TO LIFE, I FOUND TO BE UNTO DEATH.

Then consider what he made of his own righteousness in Philippians.

No man since creation has found life through the commandments!

David would do well to take note of these verses.

Dispensationalism is a completely erroneous hermeneutic!

104

News Item4/11/13 3:43 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Observer wrote:
Hey John
He's not interested!
He is sold out to this dispensationalist guy by the name of Timothy Morton, who thinks that the law could save?!
Gal 2.15,16
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall NO FLESH be justified.
Perhaps Paul had forgotten the previous dispensations? Ha!
Aye, until he met the risen Christ he never really understood the depths of the law, and as a proud Pharisee imagined that his works and genealogy were really quite spiffing.

What amazes me even more, is this weird belief of David P that there will be a millennial reign of Christ on earth, and that during this time faith is no requirement for salvation but works only will do the biz.

Phew! That puts paid to dying in Adam, eh?

103

News Item4/11/13 3:10 PM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
John UK wrote:
David, a simple glance at your text might conclude wrongly, as you have obviously done.
Hey John

He's not interested!

He is sold out to this dispensationalist guy by the name of Timothy Morton, who thinks that the law could save?!

Gal 2.15,16
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall NO FLESH be justified.

Perhaps Paul had forgotten the previous dispensations? Ha!

102

News Item4/11/13 10:41 AM
jpw  Find all comments by jpw
great conversation here on justification by faith!
101

News Item4/11/13 12:03 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
David Preston wrote:
Well John and Observer- I have been greatly sharpen. Thank God salvation is "no more of works." Rom. 11:6
David, a simple glance at your text might conclude wrongly, as you have obviously done. Observe the context...

Romans 11:4-6 KJV
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Look at v5 and particularly the words "even so" and "also".

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace".

In the present, we have "an election of grace". Grace discounts works. For by grace are ye saved, through faith..."

Verse 5 shows that this is how things were in Elijah's time, there was a "remnant according to the election of grace". And then Paul says that this is how it is "also" today, in the new covenant, that salvation is by the grace of God, not of works, but by the election of grace.

100

News Item4/10/13 11:15 PM
David Preston | Centreville, VA  Contact via emailFind all comments by David Preston
Well John and Observer- I have been greatly sharpen. Thank God salvation is "no more of works." Rom. 11:6 "And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Thank God the Holy Spirit permanently indwells the believer now and does not leave like he could and did in the Old Testament. And thank God that eternal salvation is by faith alone.
Observer I hope you visited the link I posted.
Peace
99

News Item4/10/13 5:36 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Observer wrote:
John
Quick question, does David mean by his question that God removing his Spirit from King David meant that King David would have lost his salvation, or his usefulness as a king?
I don't understand the significance of his question.
Sorry, me neither.

But I'm sure he'll tell us later on today.

98

News Item4/10/13 5:22 AM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
John UK wrote:
David,
1. Yes, I have no problem praying that, and I do. I would say that the felt presence of Christ within is effected by the Spirit, and that presence is not always felt. Now if the presence of Christ is not felt, it is as though he is not there, as if God has removed himself. But we know that God does not remove himself from any of his children. And yet many Christian men, especially those whom God has powerfully used in preaching his word, have one day woken up to find all that inner strength departed. God raised them up, God brought them back down. It is a mystery, but true. ("He hath brought me into darkness not light.") And a child will not bandy theological niceties when it thinks his best Friend has gone away. Christian, in Pilgrim's Progress, lost his scroll and had to go look for it.
2. You think it is "stretched out" to obey God's word and sing from his hymnbook? Wow!
John

Quick question, does David mean by his question that God removing his Spirit from King David meant that King David would have lost his salvation, or his usefulness as a king?

I don't understand the significance of his question.

97

News Item4/10/13 5:06 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
David Preston wrote:
JohnUK- Let me ask the question another way. Would you pray in your prayers "Lord take not thy holy spirit from me?"
As for your response I believe it is just in my opinion stretched out and incorrect.
David,
1. Yes, I have no problem praying that, and I do. I would say that the felt presence of Christ within is effected by the Spirit, and that presence is not always felt. Now if the presence of Christ is not felt, it is as though he is not there, as if God has removed himself. But we know that God does not remove himself from any of his children. And yet many Christian men, especially those whom God has powerfully used in preaching his word, have one day woken up to find all that inner strength departed. God raised them up, God brought them back down. It is a mystery, but true. ("He hath brought me into darkness not light.") And a child will not bandy theological niceties when it thinks his best Friend has gone away. Christian, in Pilgrim's Progress, lost his scroll and had to go look for it.

2. You think it is "stretched out" to obey God's word and sing from his hymnbook? Wow!

96

News Item4/10/13 5:05 AM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
Consider John 1.18 and then think on the 'Theophanies' of the OT.

Look it up if you don't know what these are and look at the Scriptural justification. Once you begin to grasp this, if you care for Scripture at all, it might just begin to affect how you view the OT.

95

News Item4/10/13 2:53 AM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
David Preston wrote:
Observer- Heb. 11:24-26 is simply pointing out that like Christ, Moses suffered reproached for being a righteous man.
David you are simply not taking the Word of God seriously. If the passage had meant to say what you are trying to make it say then it would have said that. But the wording is very precise. Maybe you think that the Holy Spirit needs a few lessons from you to express himself better?

I think you have a pet belief and no matter how much is shown to you you ain't going to move on this. Come back when you're prepared to sacrifice this sacred cow of yours and yield to the teaching of the Bible.

David Preston wrote:
I don't know his specific reward. It sure was not spiritual salvation.
Of course salvation is never a reward except under a works covenant silly. That was not my question!
94

News Item4/9/13 11:34 PM
David Preston | Centreville, VA  Contact via emailFind all comments by David Preston
Observer- Heb. 11:24-26 is simply pointing out that like Christ, Moses suffered reproached for being a righteous man. It for sure does not hint at Moses suffering for our Gospel or his plan of spiritual salvation. See Ps. 69:9 and John 2:17 for another type of this example. He did not have to know of Christ to suffer like him. I don't know his specific reward. It sure was not spiritual salvation. As for your link from Pink I will be studying it. I respect Pink and I know he was a student of the Scriptures. As for you I would hope you would visit this link and study it well.
http://preservedwords.com/ot-salvation-pv.htm

JohnUK- Let me ask the question another way. Would you pray in your prayers "Lord take not thy holy spirit from me?" As for your response I believe it is just in my opinion stretched out and incorrect.

93
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