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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | Fridays | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  7/23/2017
FRIDAY, MAR 29, 2013  |  402 comments
Pope Francis Sparks Controversy After Breaking Liturgical Law With Surprising Act

Once again, Pope Francis has shocked supporters and critics, alike. The pontiff washed and kissed the feet of a dozen inmates at a juvenile detention center in a Holy Thursday ritual that he celebrated for years as archbishop and is continuing now that he is pope.

And here’s what really turned heads : Two of the 12 were young women, a remarkable choice given that the church’s current liturgical law says only men should participate.

The mass was held in the Casal del Marmo facility in Rome, where 46 young men and women currently are detained. Many of them are Gypsies or North African migrants, and the 12 selected for the foot-washing rite included Orthodox and Muslim detainees, news reports said. ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 402 user comment(s)
News Item4/10/13 11:46 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
1. Disadvantaged? That depends on your point of view. To most of us BORN AGAIN believers it makes a difference

2. Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
How are we to bring them?

3. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
As you see, the promise is unto us and our CHILDREN.

1. Are you saying something there?

2. Where did you see baptism there in the text?

3. The promise is unto ALL, and in context, all that "the Lord our God shall call".

Those he predestinated he called, those he called he justified, those he justfied he glorified.

Besides which, notice the order of events in your text. Ooer, they had to repent first.

402

News Item4/10/13 11:34 AM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
Are you saying that the old covenant presenting of the firstborn to the Lord has an antitype in the new covenant? That circumcision is replaced by baptism? Is that it? Well, if so, how is a child disadvantaged if it is not baptised?
Disadvantaged? That depends on your point of view. To most of us BORN AGAIN believers it makes a difference

Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

How are we to bring them?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

As you see, the promise is unto us and our CHILDREN.

401

News Item4/10/13 11:30 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Observer wrote:
You're not going to get a straight answer to this John
Aye, I didn't get one last time, and it looks like this time around is no different. I never see Baptists being so evasive. Maybe it is because they believe what they say, and are not ashamed of what they believe.
400

News Item4/10/13 11:26 AM
John Yurich USA | USA  Find all comments by John Yurich USA
Observer wrote:
And you can prove this how exactly?!
If Baptism does not impart salvation then it logically stands that Baptism of infants and adults is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus.
399

News Item4/10/13 11:03 AM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
SteveR wrote:
*Covenant does not mean Elect
Maybe not in the OT covenants, but the New Covenant is completely different, and here only the elect are in Covenant.

But then Steve does not know about the NC. He would rather be in the Abrahamic Covenant, aka the Covenant of Circumcision, where circumcision was enforced by threat of death and which circumcision enjoined obedience to the law!

John Yurich USA wrote:
Infant Baptism is just a dedication of infants to Jesus and does not impart salvation just as Adult Baptism is just a dedication of adults to Jesus.
And you can prove this how exactly?!

John UK wrote:
Are you saying that the old covenant presenting of the firstborn to the Lord has an antitype in the new covenant? That circumcision is replaced by baptism? Is that it? Well, if so, how is a child disadvantaged if it is not baptised?
You're not going to get a straight answer to this John
398

News Item4/10/13 10:56 AM
John Yurich USA | USA  Find all comments by John Yurich USA
SteveR wrote:
We feel infant Baptism is appropriate and faithful to the entire witness of Scripture
Infant Baptism is just a dedication of infants to Jesus and does not impart salvation just as Adult Baptism is just a dedication of adults to Jesus.
397

News Item4/10/13 10:48 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
Dedicating children to the LORD is a great benefit in and of itself
Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
We feel infant Baptism is appropriate and faithful to the entire witness of Scripture
Are you saying that the old covenant presenting of the firstborn to the Lord has an antitype in the new covenant? That circumcision is replaced by baptism? Is that it? Well, if so, how is a child disadvantaged if it is not baptised?
396

News Item4/10/13 10:27 AM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
Eh?
How about an answer to this question?
In what way is a covenant baptised baby advantaged over a baby born to Christian parents who do not baptise it?
Dedicating children to the LORD is a great benefit in and of itself

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

We feel infant Baptism is appropriate and faithful to the entire witness of Scripture

395

News Item4/10/13 10:23 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
The answer clearly is related to which form of Baptism one finds more Biblical. To us, its a great beneit, for you it would be a stumbling block
Eh?

How about an answer to this question?

In what way is a covenant baptised baby advantaged over a baby born to Christian parents who do not baptise it?

394

News Item4/10/13 10:17 AM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
Can you find a question which relates to that answer?
The answer clearly is related to which form of Baptism one finds more Biblical. To us, its a great beneit, for you it would be a stumbling block
393

News Item4/10/13 4:53 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
If you recall, I found your practice Scriptural
Can you find a question which relates to that answer?
392

News Item4/9/13 6:09 PM
Laugh  Find all comments by Laugh
SteveR wrote:
If you recall, I found your practice Scriptural
Just can't bring yourself to answer the question can you?

Too difficult?

391

News Item4/9/13 4:10 PM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
Steve, you are misunderstanding the question. I asked what benefit does a covenant baptised child have over a child born to Christian parents who is not baptised.
Do you not think that Christian parents will bring up their children in accordance with scriptural principles, hoping that they come to faith? And that when/if they come to faith they will be baptised as believers?
So I really do have to ask the question again, as you are clearly avoiding an answer.
Let me give you a scenario to help your thoughts.
Parents have Tommy covenant baptised as a baby. But Tommy goes off the rails, leaves home at 17, and ends up in prison for fraud. He does not believe the gospel, and dies an unbeliever.
Parents have baby Susie, and their church covenants to pray for her and help the parents teach their child the truths of the gospel. At the age of 17, Susie experiences the call of God, believes on Christ, repents of her sins, and is baptised shortly after. She lives a good Christian life, and goes to heaven believing.
If you recall, I found your practice Scriptural
390

News Item4/9/13 3:46 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
So you ask what benefit? Doesnt a Church Body caring for a Covenant Child a benefit to the child? I think so, and I think it reflects the total testimony of Scripture
Steve, you are misunderstanding the question. I asked what benefit does a covenant baptised child have over a child born to Christian parents who is not baptised.

Do you not think that Christian parents will bring up their children in accordance with scriptural principles, hoping that they come to faith? And that when/if they come to faith they will be baptised as believers?

So I really do have to ask the question again, as you are clearly avoiding an answer.

Let me give you a scenario to help your thoughts.

Parents have Tommy covenant baptised as a baby. But Tommy goes off the rails, leaves home at 17, and ends up in prison for fraud. He does not believe the gospel, and dies an unbeliever.

Parents have baby Susie, and their church covenants to pray for her and help the parents teach their child the truths of the gospel. At the age of 17, Susie experiences the call of God, believes on Christ, repents of her sins, and is baptised shortly after. She lives a good Christian life, and goes to heaven believing.

389

News Item4/9/13 3:19 PM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
The answer to my question, of course.
You remember, Steve?

Are you going to have a go at it, or pass?

OK, I'll answer again including our observation

Like our understanding of the Sacrament of the Lords Supper, Baptism is to us Symbolic. Only the Blood of Christ & the Holy Ghost can actually clense us from Sin.

What we do

We baptize our infants. At that time the parents with Church body promise to care, teach, nourish & perhaps admonish them until they are confirmed. At their confirmation 15ish years later they AFFIRM that infant Baptism.*

So you ask what benefit? Doesnt a Church Body caring for a Covenant Child a benefit to the child? I think so, and I think it reflects the total testimony of Scripture

*Covenant does not mean Elect

388

News Item4/9/13 2:45 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
I was at lunch, what am I to be googling?
The answer to my question, of course.

You remember, Steve?

John UK wrote:
Does that [covenant baptised] child have any advantage over another child whose Christian parents did not baptise him?
If yes, what is that advantage?
If no, why do it?
Are you going to have a go at it, or pass?
387

News Item4/8/13 5:13 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Observer wrote:
Jeremiah 31.31-34
Now John, a few points from this.
.........
1. A new covenant is spoken of
2. It is not like the old.
3. Changes are announced
4. What are the changes? Are they ritual? Are they political? Are they national?
Given what is said, can you find any room for infants in this New Covenant, which is not like the old?
No, I really cannot, and that is my honest and sincere answer. And yet an infant, if elect, being predestinated before the foundation of the world, may be seen by God as embraced by the covenant of grace in his foreknowledge, which is why God's grace is upon them from the womb, not saved yet but carefully observed by the Lord, with a special interest in their spiritual welfare and wellbeing, to be called in due time and justified through faith; but that even if they die in infancy, yet they will be brought into God's presence by grace, and will enjoy him forever, glorifying him for the gift of grace, which is eternal life by the blood of the Lamb, shed for many.
386

News Item4/8/13 5:05 PM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
Observer wrote:
Now John, a few points from this.
1. A new covenant is spoken of
2. It is not like the old.
3. Changes are announced
4. What are the changes? Are they ritual? Are they political? Are they national?
Given what is said, can you find any room for infants in this New Covenant, which is not like the old?
{ahem}

"2. It is not like the old."

Meaning the Mosaic Covenant(covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt),

not the Abrahamic Covenant of PROMISE

That is also why the LAW doesnt determine the heirs. Because the Law doesnt nullify the promise

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

385

News Item4/8/13 4:58 PM
Observer  Find all comments by Observer
Jeremiah 31.31-34

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Now John, a few points from this.

1. A new covenant is spoken of
2. It is not like the old.
3. Changes are announced
4. What are the changes? Are they ritual? Are they political? Are they national?

Given what is said, can you find any room for infants in this New Covenant, which is not like the old?

384

News Item4/8/13 4:48 PM
SteveR  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
Observer, you gave an excellent answer to my question, and it was a good example to Steve as to how a question can be answered when he puts his mind to it.
What was his reply? "What am I supposed to be googling?"
Ha!
Hey JohnUK, you have something there on your nose, something brown.

Its very unsightly & looks desperate as you failed to protest Dave Hunt anathematizing you(and all those that adhere to the 1689 Baptist Confession), but have convulsions remembering how Rome did it centuries ago.

383
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