Speaking to a group of mostly African-American pastors and church leaders, Fred Luter recently voiced both encouragement and concerns regarding a few issues Southern Baptists face today.
The debate over Calvinism and what some refer to as "traditional Baptist" views on salvation, he added, is becoming more of a distraction in Southern Baptist life.
"We have a major, major issue with Calvinism," Luter said. "That issue can possibly, if we don't deal with it in a Christian manner, split this convention. Every city I go to, when I [meet] with pastors, [they] will ask what's going to happen with the Calvinism issue."
Pastors and church leaders need to take more of a stand, he said, against the pressures of today's politically correct culture.
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Mike wrote: Thank you, much appreciated. Of course I don't mind questions, for I may or may not answer them anyway. Over the years these issues have been dissected time and again here on SA and I've given detailed argument in the past. Dipping in and out may seem a lightweight thing to do, but there is actually life beyond forum world. It sometimes seems pointless when theologians themselves can't come to agreement, that we should think our outcome would be any different. Occasionally I recognize this and slow down. Lord willing, I'll insert unwanted opinions again. Your perception of me being contrarian may be correct, esp regarding my perception that Scripture sometimes gets filtered through a theology, rather than the reverse. Appreciate your civility
Thank you Mike for your gracious response.
I understand all that you say, but sometimes the same arguments have to do the rounds so that it challenges people to actually study the Bible and not filter everything through theological books!!
Just out of interest, have you found any books on theology that more or less set out your position? If so, please do share the title/author.
which is it wrote: Mike Just a quick question, which I hope you will not object to. Why is it that on doctrinal issues you dip in and out quickly and never stick around so that the forum members get to know the detailed arguments which keep you where you are? Your contrarian mind is sharp and I am sure that we would all benefit from some real engagement on issues. What say you? I know you currently have health issues, but maybe after you have recovered. May God speed your recovery.
Thank you, much appreciated. Of course I don't mind questions, for I may or may not answer them anyway.
Over the years these issues have been dissected time and again here on SA and I've given detailed argument in the past. Dipping in and out may seem a lightweight thing to do, but there is actually life beyond forum world.
It sometimes seems pointless when theologians themselves can't come to agreement, that we should think our outcome would be any different. Occasionally I recognize this and slow down.
Lord willing, I'll insert unwanted opinions again. Your perception of me being contrarian may be correct, esp regarding my perception that Scripture sometimes gets filtered through a theology, rather than the reverse. Appreciate your civility
Just a quick question, which I hope you will not object to.
Why is it that on doctrinal issues you dip in and out quickly and never stick around so that the forum members get to know the detailed arguments which keep you where you are?
Your contrarian mind is sharp and I am sure that we would all benefit from some real engagement on issues.
What say you?
I know you currently have health issues, but maybe after you have recovered.
which is it to Mike NY wrote: Your words: ..but importantly reveals to us how God has chosen to salvation: "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." Does the phrase really reveal how we're chosen or how we're saved?
Phew, I'd not noticed that subtle difference. Probably because I believe there can only be one interpretation of the text. It shows how God saves those whom he has chosen. Is that not clear to all? Maybe not.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. So, if we ask an English teacher what is the direct object of the verb chosen, would he say it is the prepositional phrase or the pronoun. I believe the object of the verb has to be the word you and the prepositional phrase describes the method of salvation. So if you take out the prepositional phrases to get to the subject, verb, and direct object we have, God has chosen you I am not an English teacher, but pretty sure that would be correct grammar.
Chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. So, if we ask an English teacher what is the direct object of the verb chosen, would he say it is the prepositional phrase or the pronoun. I believe the object of the verb has to be the word you and the prepositional phrase describes the method of salvation. So if you take out the prepositional phrases to get to the subject, verb, and direct object we have, God has chosen you
I am not an English teacher, but pretty sure that would be correct grammar.
Which is it wrote: You cannot then insist that the phrase "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" was God's means of choosing, which is what you said you believed to John UK.
To be fair, I didn't say I believed that's what the verse said. It says what it says. Don't you agree?
Mike wrote: Don't be confused. Read it thus: ..chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
You cannot then insist that the phrase "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" was God's means of choosing, which is what you said you believed to John UK.
which is it wrote: (Chosen you to salvation) through (sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth) or (Chosen you) to (salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth)
Don't be confused. Read it thus: ..chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
Mike wrote: Been away nursing this old tent, haven't been keeping up. 2 Thess 2:13 doesn't just say "chosen you to salvation" and leave it there, but importantly reveals to us how God has chosen to salvation: "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."
Mike, the verse has a lot of gold to dig out.
Yes, the method of God's saving is clearly shown:
1. "Sanctification of the Spirit". In the congregation, the Spirit "sets apart" individuals and speaks to them, quickens them, enlightens them. Note, this comes before they believe anything.
2. "Belief of the truth". This is the truth concerning our Lord Jesus and themselves. They see Jesus crucified for them, grievous sinners. And they are saved.
3. "Beloved of the Lord". They were beloved of God. Others who did not believe were not beloved of God.
4. "Bound to give thanks alway to God for you". Paul felt it a duty to give God the thanks and praise for their conversions. God had revealed his eternal love for them by bringing them to faith and repentance, showing that they were elect souls, chosen in Christ before the world was made.
Yes Mike, it is a marvellous verse which has so much to say.
John UK wrote: Did you miss my earlier post, Mike? 'ere it be: 2 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Hey pilgrim! You are correct in your thoughts, IMHO. Well maybe I should say IMO.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
I hate word studies, but I understand that "ordained" is a passive participle and connotes that the appointment was outside of themselves. They were the recipients, not the active force.
Anyway, I don't do well in these types of discussions which are so very clear to me. Since it is so clear, it only frustrates me.
Mike wrote: Been away nursing this old tent, haven't been keeping up. 2 Thess 2:13 doesn't just say "chosen you to salvation" and leave it there, but importantly reveals to us how God has chosen to salvation: "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."
(Chosen you to salvation) through (sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth)
or
(Chosen you) to (salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth)
John UK wrote: Did you miss my earlier post, Mike? 'ere it be: 2 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Been away nursing this old tent, haven't been keeping up. 2 Thess 2:13 doesn't just say "chosen you to salvation" and leave it there, but importantly reveals to us how God has chosen to salvation: "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."
Mike wrote: Your "chosen to salvation" quote, John. Where did you find it?
Did you miss my earlier post, Mike?
'ere it be:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
John for JESUS wrote: PROBLEMO...If I understand you correctly, Alex is wrong to believe we cannot be ordained to eternal life before it happens. Alex is right that we will not have eternal life until the appointed time.
Then we're agreed.
John for JESUS wrote: JOE LEE...The only thing I know is that those who do not believe do so because either they love the darkness rather than the Light and others do not believe because they don't want their evil works brought to light. Why did I not get tripped up by those things? Out of love for Him I obeyed and had faith. Seems like everyone would though.
Your last sentence should trouble you, and that's precisely the point that Joe is trying to make. Was there something special about you that didn't trip you up? You were wiser than the others, more knowledgeable, more discerning etc? What made the difference? Something in you or something God did?
JOE LEE...The only thing I know is that those who do not believe do so because either they love the darkness rather than the Light and others do not believe because they don't want their evil works brought to light. Why did I not get tripped up by those things? Out of love for Him I obeyed and had faith. Seems like everyone would though.
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