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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  8/20/2014
TUESDAY, FEB 5, 2013  |  49 comments
Over 40,000 teachers ‘face sack’ over gay marriage

More than 40,000 teachers say they will probably refuse to teach about “the importance of” same-sex marriage, according to a new poll.

And 56 per cent of teachers believe any colleague who takes such a stance risks damaging their career.

The survey has led to concerns that tens of thousands of teachers may face being sacked or disciplined over their views, because of how legislation is worded.


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
www.christian.org.uk

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· Page 1 ·  Found: 49 user comment(s)
News Item2/8/13 10:11 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Evangelist wrote:
Please read Louis Berkhof's Systematic Theology section on the end times. He presents both millennial views (Pre and Post) and then presents a refutation of both. In many ways, this is the best section of his book and worthy of consideration.
If you don't have a hard copy the work is available at:
http://www.full-proof.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Berkhof-Systematic-Theology-b.pdf
(sorry cannot post hyperlink as I'm using my phone to post this).
Well actually, we have only been looking at the pre/post tribulation rapture, not the millennial kingdom reign. That is, rapture as in 1 Thes 4. I don't believe in a millennium as such, as I don't see the point of such a venture, and there is insufficient scripture to prove it.

Thus far, we have been saying that the church will be going through the great tribulation along with the world, and that Christ will not return a second time until that period is complete. It seems that it is something to be prepared for, not avoided by a "secret rapture" which some have been hoodwinked into believing.

However, seeing as you asked so nicely, I will have a look at Berkhof, and see what he says about it. Thank you.

49

News Item2/8/13 9:27 AM
Evangelist | UK  Find all comments by Evangelist
John UK wrote:
Hello brother, fellow pilgrim.
Yes I do not see how anyone could really hold to a pre-trib rapture. I've certainly never seen it in scripture.
From what you've said thus far, I would say that it is the same as I have believed myself. Although I have never gone into it in a depthy way.
So you may not be so alone in it as you thought.
Please read Louis Berkhof's Systematic Theology section on the end times. He presents both millennial views (Pre and Post) and then presents a refutation of both. In many ways, this is the best section of his book and worthy of consideration.

If you don't have a hard copy the work is available at:

http://www.full-proof.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Berkhof-Systematic-Theology-b.pdf

(sorry cannot post hyperlink as I'm using my phone to post this).

48

News Item2/7/13 6:11 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
I was listening to a Pastor on my iPod today and he mentioned a-milleniumists. I think that was it. People who believe that we are in the midst of the millenium. I thought that was very odd for many reasons, with one of them being that it would mean Satan is locked up right now. I wonder if some poeple believe certain things, not because of doing their due diligence in researching particular topics, but solely because "that's what I've been taught". I guess it's a non fatal issue, but for issues that are fatal, I wonder how people can be comfortable entrusting their eternal security to mere, sinful men, without ever doing the smallest bit of research to find out if what they have/are being taught is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
47

News Item2/7/13 2:50 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
jpw wrote:
...but "technically" this isn't "the" tribulation.
Are you saying that we are IN the tribulation period jp? If so, there are less than seven years before the end of the world.
46

News Item2/7/13 2:37 PM
jpw  Find all comments by jpw
the church (organized, not necessarily the true and living) of Germany defended Hitler as a sign of patriotism, excited about helping him build the millenial kingdom, where there may be troubles now but peace later due to their great efforts. they literally turned up the organ music to not hear the trains going by.

they probably thought they were being super spiritual or something too, as this tends to be the way people think when they mix religion with human pride.

and so, americans had to force them to clean up their own concentration camps. I met someone who never admitted what she had witnessed, in a permanent form of denial, and she loved Christ.

so we see history repeating itself today.

what are we??? lawyers?? a man watches his daughters taken away in the streets and is beheaded! this is common now. crucifictions, but "technically" this isn't "the" tribulation.

Christ said he showed us of the tribulation, which he would come afterward (matt 24), so we would be prepared, and be of good cheer, for He has overcome the world. our theology is keeping us from the blessings of Christ.

45

News Item2/7/13 12:18 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
John UK wrote:
Hello brother, fellow pilgrim.
Yes I do not see how anyone could really hold to a pre-trib rapture. I've certainly never seen it in scripture.
From what you've said thus far, I would say that it is the same as I have believed myself. Although I have never gone into it in a depthy way.
So you may not be so alone in it as you thought.
Pilgrim! The issue is of course more complicated than I am making it. One more thought and then I will only be a responder. The pre-tribers say God has not appointed His church to wrath, but then they say those who are converted during the tribulation will undergo the trib. Now, why would God appoint them to wrath and not the ones that were converted prior to the trib? Since I believe in election, it would seem God shouldn't be saving anyone during that period of time, which all pre-tribers say will happen.

But, there is one argument against Post-trib that I can't answer without spinning the verses, so to speak.

44

News Item2/7/13 11:53 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Frank wrote:
Brother John, fellow ember, et al.
I have studied mostly against the concept of a pre-trib rapture. Below are some of the proof texts the pre-tribers us. Notice in Re. 3:10, it does not say Christians will be removed during this period of time, but that they will be cared for or guarded.
Hello brother, fellow pilgrim.

Yes I do not see how anyone could really hold to a pre-trib rapture. I've certainly never seen it in scripture.

From what you've said thus far, I would say that it is the same as I have believed myself. Although I have never gone into it in a depthy way.

So you may not be so alone in it as you thought.

43

News Item2/7/13 11:47 AM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Brother John, fellow ember, et al.
I have studied mostly against the concept of a pre-trib rapture. Below are some of the proof texts the pre-tribers us. Notice in Re. 3:10, it does not say Christians will be removed during this period of time, but that they will be cared for or guarded. Jesus uses the same word in John 17:15.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10 KJV)

Strongs = 1) to attend to carefully, take care of 1a) to guard 1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is 1c) to observe 1d) to reserve: to undergo something Synonym:

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. (Jhn 17:15 KJV)

Lastly, Christ said the wheat and tares would be together until the gathering; the wheat is not removed 7 years before He returns; otherwise, they would not be growing together!

[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (Mat 13:30 KJV)

42

News Item2/7/13 10:53 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Good morning, John.
1) There is limited biblical information to help us learn the nature of the man of sin and what he will do but I couldn't speculate who he is till he does what is prophecied. I believe he will be a secular leader granted great authority which will not bode well for God fearing Christians. I don't think such a consolidation of power in one person or entity exists yet but the trend certainly does.
2) Sure seems that way. The historical biblical record tells us that God rises up in furious rebuke and ushers in judgment when the power of His people is gone and His heritage is on the verge of deception.... when Truth and equity has fallen at the hands of hirelings. This is almost the rule now in the majority of professing Christian churches.
I think the pre-tribbers problem is they don't understand what actually happens during the tribulation. Too many religious fiction movies have blinded them to the fact that real Christians will be troubled by false doctrine preached by hirelings.
Sounds right to me, brother. Thanks.
41

News Item2/7/13 10:29 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Bro Lurker
1) If the revelation of the man of sin ushers in a period of great tribulation, have you any thoughts on who this man is?

2) And if worldwide events are anything to go by, are we not rapidly approaching such a time?

Good morning, John.

1) There is limited biblical information to help us learn the nature of the man of sin and what he will do but I couldn't speculate who he is till he does what is prophecied. I believe he will be a secular leader granted great authority which will not bode well for God fearing Christians. I don't think such a consolidation of power in one person or entity exists yet but the trend certainly does.

2) Sure seems that way. The historical biblical record tells us that God rises up in furious rebuke and ushers in judgment when the power of His people is gone and His heritage is on the verge of deception.... when Truth and equity has fallen at the hands of hirelings. This is almost the rule now in the majority of professing Christian churches.

I think the pre-tribbers problem is they don't understand what actually happens during the tribulation. Too many religious fiction movies have blinded them to the fact that real Christians will be troubled by false doctrine preached by hirelings.

40

News Item2/7/13 6:49 AM
fullstop  Find all comments by fullstop
John UK wrote:
And if worldwide events are anything to go by, are we not rapidly approaching such a time?
If present day bible believers were alive in World War 2 I am fairly sure that most would have thought Hitler was the man of sin, but they would have been badly mistaken despite the mayhem that was taking place. If we had a Hitler figure doing the same today then the majority would think the antichrist had appeared and the end was nigh.

Even today's terrible wickedness in the west is only a repeat of what has happened in communist countries for years. God is on the throne and who knows what He will yet work in communist countries or even our own?

If we were alive in the dark ages prior to the Reformation would we have expected such a reformation?

When the man of sin arises we will know,... "if it were possible, even the elect." Mark 13. 22

The elect won't be deceived!

But John may well be right that we are approaching such a time, but I am certain the elect will be first to know and not some conspiracy site or nutjob poster(s) that come to mind IN CAPS!

Takeheed

39

News Item2/7/13 5:57 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Lurker wrote:
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that EVERY ONE which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The last day, Rufus, is "the day of the Lord" "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe." (2 Thes 1:7-10)
Frank, everlasting destruction of unbelievers is specific only to the second resurrection. (Rev 20:15)
Bro Lurker
If the revelation of the man of sin ushers in a period of great tribulation, have you any thoughts on who this man is? And if worldwide events are anything to go by, are we not rapidly approaching such a time?
38

News Item2/7/13 12:12 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Rufus wrote:
The trouble with the contemporary pre-trib rapture position is not whether or not it will happen, for it will indeed happen. The trouble is in the presumption that all believers will be a part of the first fruits or pre-trib rapture for it will only be those that are accounted worthy to escape the things that will come to pass. It will be those who are already suffering for Christ and are living holy lives. Those that are lukewarm [...] will be spewed out of the mouth of Jesus Christ into the tribulation.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that EVERY ONE which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The last day, Rufus, is "the day of the Lord" "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe." (2 Thes 1:7-10)

Frank, everlasting destruction of unbelievers is specific only to the second resurrection. (Rev 20:15)

37

News Item2/6/13 11:01 PM
jpw  Find all comments by jpw
since when does Christ remove His church from suffering? it is the hallmark of the faith! we are acting like stepchildren!
36

News Item2/6/13 10:26 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Rufus wrote:
"The only time I have ever heard your thoughts before was from some Pentecostals who believe that unless someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit, they won’t be raptured." Gibberish tongues are satanic, has nothing to do with me nor the topic at hand.
Well we will disagree on the scriptures you noted. But, I never meant to associate you with the Pentecostal movement, but only mentioned that is the only time I ever heard anything similar to that. Sorry if you misunderstood and I'm glad you gave me the opportunity to clear that up.
35

News Item2/6/13 10:08 PM
Rufus | Fort Worth, TX  Protected NameFind all comments by Rufus
Frank wrote:
"Luke 21:36 - This is regarding the tribulation, not the rapture."
The rapture is what occurs prior to the tribulation. The Lord says you ought to pray to escape the tribulation. One way to escape would be via a catching away.
"1 John 2:28 - ...imply we won’t be raptured." Some will be ashamed at the Lord's coming. That shame will not get them a well done thou good and faithful servant.
"Rev 3:16 - This is regarding the unsaved," All 7 churches are saved churches of Jesus Christ. The verse is to the saved.
"Galatians 5:21 -. This is regarding those who are not saved." It is to believers.
"Revelation 20:6 - This means that believers will not be judged." Believers will be judged, see 1 Peter 4:17.
"The only time I have ever heard your thoughts before was from some Pentecostals who believe that unless someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit, they won’t be raptured." Gibberish tongues are satanic, has nothing to do with me nor the topic at hand.
"All believers have the righteousness of Christ..." Believers are eternally saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and nothing can take that away. However, they will be judged for their walk. Good fruit rapture, green fruit tribulation, rotten fruit cast away.
34

News Item2/6/13 6:12 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Frank wrote:
John, you know I am unlikely to refer you to a link. But my guess is 95% of the sermons you hear on SA would disagree with me. Most Western Christians are pre-tribers, but if you insist I will find a good post-trib site and post it.
Pre-tribers?

But that would entail the world carrying on after the saints were removed. And I don't see how that fits in with anything.

I'm following your argument, and weighing it up. There does not seem much wrong with it thus far.

However, I don't arrive at doctrine in an instant, and you will have to bear with me.

Christopher, I'm with you on that biblical principle of not accepting labels. But they'll stick one on you anyway, whoever "they" are.

33

News Item2/6/13 5:31 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
46 minutes ago
to mode or not to mode writes:
Christopher000 wrote:
A bath? As in bubble bath? Please say "shower" the next time like we manly Americans say
I thought you Baptists always used the bath for immersion and considered the sprinkler of the showers unbiblical?

Ha...your post reminded me of how I'm beginning to dislike labels.
I feel like if I claim to be a Baptist, then that locks me in to believing, in the minds of others, every theological aspect of that particular denomination. I do for the most part, but there are some non fatal, interpretations, etc, that I may go the other way on because arguments to the contrary can be made.
Anyway, I prefer to refer to myself simply as a follower of Christ these days.

32

News Item2/6/13 4:36 PM
to mode or not to mode  Find all comments by to mode or not to mode
Christopher000 wrote:
A bath? As in bubble bath? Please say "shower" the next time like we manly Americans say
I thought you Baptists always used the bath for immersion and considered the sprinkler of the showers unbiblical?
31

News Item2/6/13 3:40 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Rufus wrote:
Luke 21:36 - This is regarding the tribulation, not the rapture.
1 John 2:28 - This is simply saying we should live righteous lives, but it doesn’t say or imply we won’t be raptured.
Revelation 3:16 - This is regarding the unsaved, not the saved.
Galatians 5:21 -. This is regarding those who are not saved.
Revelation 20:6 - This means that believers will not be judged. Once they received their glorified bodies, it is finished.

The only time I have ever heard your thoughts before was from some Pentecostals who believe that unless someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit, they won’t be raptured.

All believers have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them; so if I'm not perfect, I am still in my sins, ergo I am PERFECT in that sense.

John, you know I am unlikely to refer you to a link. But my guess is 95% of the sermons you hear on SA would disagree with me. Most Western Christians are pre-tribers, but if you insist I will find a good post-trib site and post it.

Christopher, you have it about right.

30
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