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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  11/24/2014
TUESDAY, DEC 18, 2012  |  74 comments
Church billboard: was Jesus gay?

Jesus may have been progressive in more ways than one, according to a new billboard in Auckland.

The St Matthew in the City billboard, which is released each Christmas, this year depicts the baby Jesus in his crib surrounded by a halo of rainbow colours.

"It's Christmas," the billboard reads. "It's time for Jesus to come out."

Reverend Glynn Cardy said the sign was about trying to lift the humanity of Jesus.


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
www.stuff.co.nz

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· Page 1 ·  Found: 74 user comment(s)
News Item12/20/12 6:56 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Temptation in Scripture is not always enticement to sin. Sometimes it is testing, trial or affliction.
74

News Item12/20/12 4:58 PM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Chris from NY (guest)...How are you doing?
73

News Item12/20/12 1:03 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Frank wrote:
No, all points means all points; just like we are means just like we are. In the wilderness - Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life - all points. Can you imagine a sin that would not have been encompassed by our Lord that would not be included in those 3 things. And you are correct, I don't expect to be right on all points. That is why I read your arguments so carefully even if they are wrong. They always cause me to ponder scripture and that is always a good thing.
Correct!
72

News Item12/20/12 12:54 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
John UK wrote:
Okay Frank, but it appears as though you are falling for the Frenchy Method of interpretation, where "all" only means "all" when it suits the purpose.
You reckon "all points" means "some points"?
Well that's okay; you can't expect to be right on everything.
No, all points means all points; just like we are means just like we are. In the wilderness - Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life - all points. Can you imagine a sin that would not have been encompassed by our Lord that would not be included in those 3 things. And you are correct, I don't expect to be right on all points. That is why I read your arguments so carefully even if they are wrong. They always cause me to ponder scripture and that is always a good thing.
71

News Item12/20/12 12:47 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Frank wrote:
No, all I ever said was the Messiah didn't "struggle" against sin. I was careful to say or at least imply that in some general sense Christ was tempted; I limited it to the wilderness where in a general sense all "types" of sins would have been addressed. Lust of the flesh; lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. But, Christ was never tempted to engage in sodomy, steal, murder, etc. If your interpretation of 4:15 is correct; then Christ was tempted in those areas. "in all points, like we are". You can't have it both ways. But, I really do understand your position. I am focusing on what actually took place in the wilderness; not adding to it or taking from it. At that time and only at that time, was He tempted in all ways, like we are.
Okay Frank, but it appears as though you are falling for the Frenchy Method of interpretation, where "all" only means "all" when it suits the purpose.

You reckon "all points" means "some points"?

Well that's okay; you can't expect to be right on everything.

70

News Item12/20/12 12:32 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
John UK wrote:
Frank I'm right glad to hear it.
But regarding Hebrews 4:15, you and all the others except Christopher seem to shy away from it, as though it disturbs your equilibrium.
And it is one verse especially designed for our comfort and blessing, knowing that our Lord has experienced and gone through everything, thus understanding what we suffer or have trials with.
No, all I ever said was the Messiah didn't "struggle" against sin. I was careful to say or at least imply that in some general sense Christ was tempted, but His victory was not in doubt as you are suggesting. The prohecy was certain and I don't understand His temptation? I limited it to the wilderness where in a general sense all "types" of sins would have been addressed. Lust of the flesh; lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. But, Christ was never tempted to engage in sodomy, steal, murder, etc. If your interpretation of 4:15 is correct; then Christ was tempted in those areas. "in all points, like we are". You can't have it both ways. But, I really do understand your position. I am focusing on what actually took place in the wilderness; not adding to it or taking from it. At that time and only at that time, was He tempted in all ways, like we are.
69

News Item12/20/12 12:12 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Frank wrote:
And such is the mystery; we have certain prophecy and certain instruction as to how to fight against Satan-both. I look at it this way; the lots must be cast by humans, but the outcome belongs to the Lord. We are given commandments that we understand; see Deu 29;29 below, and I do them as I understand them and then leave the outcome to God’s sovereignty. Would I ever say that I shouldn't struggle; absolutely not. A MYSTERY. but no fatalism!
Frank I'm right glad to hear it.

But regarding Hebrews 4:15, you and all the others except Christopher seem to shy away from it, as though it disturbs your equilibrium.

And it is one verse especially designed for our comfort and blessing, knowing that our Lord has experienced and gone through everything, thus understanding what we suffer or have trials with.

68

News Item12/20/12 12:05 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
John UK wrote:
And such is the mystery; we have certain prophecy and certain instruction as to how to fight against Satan-both. I look at it this way; the lots must be cast by humans, but the outcome belongs to the Lord. We are given commandments that we understand; see Deu 29;29 below, and I do them as I understand them and then leave the outcome to God’s sovereignty. Would I ever say that I shouldn't struggle; absolutely not. There is no scripture that negates my responsibilities; just the opposite. A MYSTERY. but no fatalism!

Ephesians 6:12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Acts 13:29. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30. But God raised him from the dead:

Deuteronomy 29:29. The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

67

News Item12/20/12 11:40 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Frank wrote:
Well Pilgrim, it appears that Mike and I and others are correct and you are wrong, but I understand your thought processes. Now surely you aren't implying that this "battle" between Christ and Satan wasn't settled before the foundation of the earth. Now if that is true, the the victory was settled before Christ came to this earth and before He was tempted by Satan (a created being). NO DOUBT; "PROPHECY"
Well Frank, if you say that regarding the Saviour, you also have to say that regarding our own battles between us and Satan.

But I don't think the Christian church will be very effective if you say that all our losses are foreordained, and that it is God's will for "the church" to be so ineffective in losing so many battles.

If that was the case, why is there so much instruction in the NT on how to wage a good warfare? And is it God's will that so many Christians are backslidden and bring disrepute to the name of Christ?

Man, you're getting so close to the Fatalist view of history.

Hebrews 4:15 KJV
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was IN ALL POINTS tempted LIKE AS WE ARE yet without sin.

See the parallel?

66

News Item12/20/12 11:07 AM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
John UK wrote:
Good morning Mike.
I see that the Spirit had a plan in the will of God, that the Lord should be tempted by none another than the devil, who was allowed to tempt him while physically weak.
"Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil."
If it was a no-contest, why the contest?
Do we not have here an intense spiritual battle, fought with the sword of the Spirit? The first battle on earth the devil fought he implied that God did not mean what he said, and Eve fell for it: "Yea, hath God said?"
Here, he quotes scripture, as if to use the very word of God to trick the Lord into sinning. So what does the Lord do? He gets out his sword and thrusts Satan through. It is a fight. Satan fought in heaven against Michael and lost the struggle. Here he is trying again, and loses again.
Well Pilgrim, it appears that Mike and I and others are correct and you are wrong, but I understand your thought processes. Now surely you aren't implying that this "battle" between Christ and Satan wasn't settled before the foundation of the earth. Now if that is true, the the victory was settled before Christ came to this earth and before He was tempted by Satan (a created being). NO DOUBT; "PROPHECY"
65

News Item12/20/12 5:07 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
Bro, how do you define struggle? You need find said struggle in the verses you posted. I see him brush off Satan with Divine truth. Struggle implies the Lord thought about that bread, then sent Satan running. No, he didn't waste time with Satan, mulling over should he or shouldn't he change stones to bread. Struggle implies adversaries going at it. Satan's efforts had no effect. They couldn't.
Good morning Mike.

I see that the Spirit had a plan in the will of God, that the Lord should be tempted by none another than the devil, who was allowed to tempt him while physically weak.

"Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil."

If it was a no-contest, why the contest?

Do we not have here an intense spiritual battle, fought with the sword of the Spirit? The first battle on earth the devil fought he implied that God did not mean what he said, and Eve fell for it: "Yea, hath God said?"

Here, he quotes scripture, as if to use the very word of God to trick the Lord into sinning. So what does the Lord do? He gets out his sword and thrusts Satan through. It is a fight. Satan fought in heaven against Michael and lost the struggle. Here he is trying again, and loses again.

64

News Item12/19/12 7:37 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
John UK wrote:
---
the "struggle".
Observe, if you will, the "struggle".
Matthew 4:1-4 KJV
1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Now please note that this episode is an example of satanic spiritual warfare. It was experienced full blast by the Lord, and to a lesser degree by ourselves, because the Lord "hedges us about", knowing our pitiable state.
Satanic spiritual warfare involves by definition, FIGHTING. It is a FIGHT to the finish! It is a STRUGGLE!
---
Bro, how do you define struggle? You need find said struggle in the verses you posted. I see him brush off Satan with Divine truth. Struggle implies the Lord thought about that bread, then sent Satan running. No, he didn't waste time with Satan, mulling over should he or shouldn't he change stones to bread. Struggle implies adversaries going at it. Satan's efforts had no effect. They couldn't.
63

News Item12/19/12 6:56 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Wonder

The comment does not address the issue currently under inspection, namely, the "struggle".

Observe, if you will, the "struggle".

Matthew 4:1-4 KJV
1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Now please note that this episode is an example of satanic spiritual warfare. It was experienced full blast by the Lord, and to a lesser degree by ourselves, because the Lord "hedges us about", knowing our pitiable state.

Satanic spiritual warfare involves by definition, FIGHTING. It is a FIGHT to the finish! It is a STRUGGLE! It is warding off attacks by invisible spiritual FORCES.

We FIGHT THE DEVIL, and all his devils!

Your own post was a fighting post; you are trying to fight against the truth, even though you believe yourself to be orthodox.

Do you REALLY, and VAINLY imagine that Jesus Christ has NOT struggled and fought the devil during his life on earth?

tomorra

62

News Item12/19/12 6:38 PM
wondering  Find all comments by wondering
John UK wrote:
Eve also did not have a sin nature, but was tempted to sin.
Christ is one person with two natures, a Divine nature, as God; and a human nature as man.

"Could Jesus have sinned in his humanity while being God in the flesh. We need to understand that he was one person. If his humanity was separate it could have willed to do just as Adam did... The humanity of Christ could never be separate from or unsupported from His deity. With Adam there was only one nature with Christ he was supported by and anointed by deity as the Son of God."

"In our fallen humanity we cannot act apart from our nature. Jesus however did not have the sin nature that we have. He was free to act perfectly in all situations. He acted upon his sinless nature obeying another's will, that of his Father. He was not able to go against God's will because He did not have the nature of sin to have that possibility. He knew no sin (2 Cor.5:21) ... He came like a man (Rom.8:3) looking like anyone else yet without the sinful nature, there was nothing of himself on the outside that attracted people. As Jesus took upon himself another nature of humanity it did not have the indwelling of sin..."

61

News Item12/19/12 6:21 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
wondering wrote:
Christ did not have a sin nature so how could he be tempted to sin?
Eve also did not have a sin nature, but was tempted to sin.

Observe this article I've just found from monergism

"So our blessed Lord went through these thorns and briars set against him in battle. He thoroughly went through all that he undertook; and by going through unraveled the work of Satan.

"Let us explain this more distinctly, as a point full of truth and blessedness. Thus he went through temptation — wholly through, for he "was in all points tempted like as we are," (Heb. 4:15,) and by going through every possible temptation which can beset us, threaded, so to speak, the whole avenue of temptation from beginning to end. So he went through the whole of the law, rendering a perfect obedience to it in every demand of unfailing love to God and his neighbor. So he went through the whole of suffering, for "he was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief," experiencing every possible form of suffering that was compatible with a holy nature."

Now if you want to do yourself out of the blessing of knowing that Christ fully understands your trials because he's "been there", that's up to you.

60

News Item12/19/12 6:20 PM
whole hog  Find all comments by whole hog
Inherited a sin nature from his human mother or was denied this inheritance?
59

News Item12/19/12 6:13 PM
wondering  Find all comments by wondering
John UK wrote:
Of course it is Frank. This is all about law. This is about the will of God. It is all about obedience or disobedience. In order to our salvation, Christ had to obey, and he had to obey AS A MAN. Think about it. He had to become a MAN because it was a man that had sinned. The man sinned, a perfect man had to die as a substitute.
Our Lord had a huge job of work to do in order to be a perfect man. Right from birth he had to keep the law. Joseph and his mother had to keep the law in regard to the sacrifices at birth. If the devil had successfully kept them from offering at the temple, there would have been sin involved in the life of Jesus.
He came from heaven as the perfect Spirit, but his human life had to be lived. It was not a foregone conclusion that he would succeed. This is no theological exercise to debate over; it is crucial, as I have explained, for our justification. Sins are by commission or omission, don't forget.
Christ did not have a sin nature so how could he be tempted to sin?
58

News Item12/19/12 5:17 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Frank wrote:
His struggle was because the most abhorent thing to our Savior would be to have our sins placed on Him and His Father forsake Him. Neither of those things would be a struggle against personal sin.
Of course it is Frank. This is all about law. This is about the will of God. It is all about obedience or disobedience. In order to our salvation, Christ had to obey, and he had to obey AS A MAN. Think about it. He had to become a MAN because it was a man that had sinned. The man sinned, a perfect man had to die as a substitute.

Our Lord had a huge job of work to do in order to be a perfect man. Right from birth he had to keep the law. Joseph and his mother had to keep the law in regard to the sacrifices at birth. If the devil had successfully kept them from offering at the temple, there would have been sin involved in the life of Jesus.

He came from heaven as the perfect Spirit, but his human life had to be lived. It was not a foregone conclusion that he would succeed. This is no theological exercise to debate over; it is crucial, as I have explained, for our justification. Sins are by commission or omission, don't forget.

57

News Item12/19/12 4:59 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
John UK wrote:
The obedience of Christ had to be perfect, and thus he was able to abide in his Father's love. This obedience was tested, tried. Why do you think the devil waited until Christ had endured forty days and nights without food and drink before tempting him?
Now if you want to be justified by faith in Christ, you need to understand exactly what you are believing in, and exactly what Christ has accomplished on your behalf. Before he could ever be both a high priest and a sacrifice, he had to observe the law perfectly. It is to his glory that he succeeded.
But, you are inferring that because the devil came to Christ when He was weak, then He struggled. But, a struggle is not found or implied in the text. Now, someone could say Christ struggled in the garden, but I could easily say His struggle was not one of being obedient or not obedient to His Father. His struggle was because the most abhorent thing to our Savior would be to have our sins placed on Him and His Father forsake Him. Neither of those things would be a struggle against personal sin.
56

News Item12/19/12 4:38 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Now then chaps, do you want to be justified? And what is justification but to be declared righteous before God. And how can we be justified if we are unrighteous before God?

What is sin? "Sin is trangression of the law".

Has one kept the law on our behalf, that he may impute this obedience unto another, namely a sinner? Yes indeed.

If there was no struggle with sin and disobedience, what value do you think the rightousness of Christ would be? Was he not already righteous before he left heaven? Why then did he have to obey God as fully man in order that his righteousness by active obedience might be imputed to us who believe? Note that Christ was FULLY man, the imputed sin nature excepted.

The obedience of Christ had to be perfect, and thus he was able to abide in his Father's love. This obedience was tested, tried. Why do you think the devil waited until Christ had endured forty days and nights without food and drink before tempting him?

Now if you want to be justified by faith in Christ, you need to understand exactly what you are believing in, and exactly what Christ has accomplished on your behalf. Before he could ever be both a high priest and a sacrifice, he had to observe the law perfectly. It is to his glory that he succeeded.

55
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