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THURSDAY, APRIL 24, 2014 | TIPS Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
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SUNDAY, NOV 18, 2012| 18 comments
Gay Marriage Efforts Gain Steam While Opponents Deal With Internal Conflict
Prior to the 2012 elections, proponents of traditional marriage had 32 consecutive state victories when it came to banning same-sex marriage. But this November four states – albeit four that lean left – ended that streak by voting to approve same-sex marriage in some fashion. Those defeats have also led to some internal strife within the pro-family movement.

Voters in Maryland, Minnesota, Maine and Washington State voted for same-sex marriage by a small margin. With losses come disappointment and some within the leadership ranks of pastors have expressed frustration and levied harsh criticism over how the campaigns to oppose same-sex marriage were orchestrated.

Pastor Ken Hutcherson, who leads a mixed race congregation at Antioch Bible Church in Washington State has been on the frontlines on the battle to protect traditional marriage for many years. The controversial and outspoken former ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 18 user comment(s)
News Item11/20/12 11:32 AM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Christopher000 wrote:
Thanks Frank. I realize that I will not be able to come to a comfortable conclusion based upon a few posts but will have to find my answers while studying the Bible, I guess. Maybe there are books written about this.
Frank, the reason I asked is because you have been unusually quiet. I think I wear out my welcome with people quick because I tend to post a lot and I can be a bit wild when I feel like I've been wronged...saying things I shouldn't.
We all say things we shouldn't, especially me. Sometimes I don't post because I don't think I can add anything meaningful to a discussion or it looks like the debate is going nowhere. I usually am not bothered by disagreement unless someone attacks my motives; then I forgive them and ignore them forever.

The issue of how God views Israel is interesting and I agree our primary source of understanding should be scripture. There is really nothing in theology or doctrine that is not important, since on thought generally impacts another. Like; if God "chose" Israel, will He ever abandon Israel. See how that thought could drive another? If He chose me, will He ever abandon me?

18

News Item11/20/12 7:32 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Thanks Frank. I realize that I will not be able to come to a comfortable conclusion based upon a few posts but will have to find my answers while studying the Bible, I guess. Maybe there are books written about this.
Frank, the reason I asked is because you have been unusually quiet. I think I wear out my welcome with people quick because I tend to post a lot and I can be a bit wild when I feel like I've been wronged...saying things I shouldn't.
17

News Item11/19/12 5:07 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
And of course there are many others.

Jeremiah 33:[24] Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. [25] Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant [be] not with day and night, [and if] I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; [26] Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, [so] that I will not take [any] of his seed [to be] rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

16

News Item11/19/12 1:31 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Christopher000 wrote:
Thanks all, and Frank...good to hear from you. I hope whatever I said or did is in the past.
You have never written anything that offended me in the slightest. I sometimes reply to you without using the reply button, but address your thoughts.

This issue is complicated like Russ said. I think his thoughts were very good. I have only briefly studied covenant theology or dispensationalism, so neither drive my thoughts. I think that Israel and the Jewish people were called by God and His callings are irrevocable. All I was trying to say is that when Christ reigns in Jerusalem, He will not reign with non-believing Jews or Gentiles. That would make no sense. So, all Jews that remain at His coming (the believing remnant) will in fact embrace Him as their Lord and Savior. But, to give moral credence to non-believing Jews simply because they are Jews is antithetical to scripture. The nation of Israel was and is special to God and we were grafted into the believing remnant, not the other way around. I pray for Israel and the Jewish people, but I don't pray for Germany and the German people; there is a difference.

I pray that Christ will save all Jews and return to them and establish His kindgom "there".

15

News Item11/19/12 11:12 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Thanks Russ
14

News Item11/19/12 8:56 AM
The poster formerly known as Russ | Texas  Find all comments by The poster formerly known as Russ
Christopher000,
I would just consider that you are on a sight that is dominated by people coming at this from a covenant theology perspective, so they view that the people of Israel and the actual nation to be a non issue since the real Israel is the new man created by faith in Christ. There are other perspectives out there such as the dispensational view and some that are not completely classified.
I fall in somewhere in between the two having come out of a messianic Jewish congregation. Most of your Presbyterians hold to covenant and most of your nondenominational or baptist/ evangelical churches hold to the dispensational view. So don't be so sad. The majority of evangelicals out there feel the same as you do.
Personally, I think that the case can be made from the Scriptures that we, Gentiles, are made a part of the people of Israel through Christ, and while the majority of Israelis today are not Believers in Christ, there are in fact hundreds of thousands of messianic Jews in Israel today. You are right, in my view, to think that God did bring them back by His sovereign hand and does still have more in store for them because line Paul said, "From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for t
13

News Item11/19/12 7:41 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
I'm not saying I'm right, by the way, but rather that this is all a shock to my system that I'm having a lot of trouble with.

Are there any non biased authors I can read on this topic? Where did you all get the information that brought you to your conclusions? There are obviously two sides and I'd like to read the arguments.

Thanks again for the comments. By the way, is this a born again Christian web site/forum? I've seen "Presby" mentioned a lot which I assume is Presbyterian. Not sure what the difference is but just curious.

12

News Item11/19/12 7:14 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Thanks all, and Frank...good to hear from you. I hope whatever I said or did is in the past.
I read the comments last night but felt too sad to post. I feel sad all over again right or wrong. At first I was shocked because I thought all felt the same about Israel and now I feel really terrible because the world hates her and most Christians, I guess, feel the opposite of what I thought...so I feel like they've been totally abandoned and that makes me really, REALLY sad. I don't know what a Zionist is but I'm certain that I've listened to sermons that concern our love for and protection of Israel as our duty. Why is God gathering them back toghther and why is he fulfilling His promises to them, both past and future? I thought God was going to open their eyes in the end to glorify His name but if that's not true, then most Jews are forever lost. That, along with the fact they are forever being attacked and that they have even fewer friends than I thought is what really saddens me.
Obviously I have some study to do but I just can't imagine myself taking the same position. Makes me feel like God would then turn His back on me. I hope I made sense here...I feel like I'm rambling. I think Chuck Missler and Avi Lipkin are two of the preachers I've listened to about this but
11

News Item11/18/12 4:26 PM
a believer to the end  Find all comments by a believer to the end
Christopher000 wrote:
I thought we, as Christians anyway, were suppose to defend Israel. I'm confused somewhere, I guess. I assumed that since they are God's chosen people that we are suppose to be their friends, defend them, etc. I always thought the US was blessed in part due to our befriending and protecting Israel.
I think the problem is that you think that the Israel that God is keeping an eye on is a physical nation. Rather, it is a spiritual Israel, comprised of Jews and Gentiles who are trusting in Jesus Christ as their Lord, Savior, and king and not in Islam, Judaism, etc. Those citizens of Israel who have yet to believe on Jesus and who he is are no different than his Arab "enemy"
10

News Item11/18/12 1:13 PM
Frank  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Christopher000 wrote:
I thought we, as Christians anyway, were suppose to defend Israel.
This is one area that I usually stay away from because like John and Lurker say, it depends on which hermeneutic one uses. But, just some theological points. Paul called the false circumcision dogs. All things are summed up in Christ, so those Jews who don't believe in Christ will be judged just like anyone else. Christ only has one bride and that will consist of believing Jews and Gentiles. And, we have been grafted into the Jewish line of believers and the church and believing Israel are now "one"; of the seed of Abraham (by faith). But with all that said, Christ will set up His kingdom in the land of Israel when He returns. But, non-believing Jews will not reign with him.

The current Jewish nation is probably as far away from God as any in the world even though they were the first to be given the word of God. You know that most Jews are totally secular. So, when I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, then I pray for the return of the Lord. So, I would not support a non-believing Jew simply because he is a Jew, which is what many people do.

One church, one bride, oh and Post-trib is the correct end-time scenario.

9

News Item11/18/12 11:54 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Christopher000 wrote:
I thought we, as Christians anyway, were suppose to defend Israel. I'm confused somewhere, I guess. I assumed that since they are God's chosen people that we are suppose to be their friends, defend them, etc. I always thought the US was blessed in part due to our befriending and protecting Israel.
There is much diverse Christian thinking on this subject, Christopher, and it all depends on how God thinks concerning the nation of Israel.

If, all on a sudden, the nation turns to Christ en masse, it will have an effect on how we think about it. But thus far, there is no sign of this occurring, which also will have an effect on how we think about it.

8

News Item11/18/12 11:53 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Christopher000 wrote:
I thought we, as Christians anyway, were suppose to defend Israel. I'm confused somewhere, I guess. I assumed that since they are God's chosen people that we are suppose to be their friends, defend them, etc. I always thought the US was blessed in part due to our befriending and protecting Israel.
The belief you described, Christian Zionism, is a dispensationalist point of view but certainly not held by all Christians.

It teaches that the gathering of Israel began in 1948 but NT writings teach it began with Paul's ministry.

The great divide between the two beliefs is accounted for by the different hermeneutic (interpretive principle) applied to the bible.

7

News Item11/18/12 11:37 AM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Christopher000 wrote:
I thought we, as Christians anyway, were suppose to defend Israel.
So say many preachers, but where in Scripture is this a duty for believers? Gen 12:3 is usually cited, but that hinges on a series of deductions that make no sense. Consider this: Do we “curse” Swedes just because we have no treaty with them & don't send them money?
6

News Item11/18/12 11:07 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
I thought we, as Christians anyway, were suppose to defend Israel. I'm confused somewhere, I guess. I assumed that since they are God's chosen people that we are suppose to be their friends, defend them, etc. I always thought the US was blessed in part due to our befriending and protecting Israel.
5

News Item11/18/12 10:29 AM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Christopher000 wrote:
I think our friendship with Israel and our commitment to defend them is the one thread that hasn't broke yet that keeps God from washing His hands of us.
Thoughts?
On the contrary, a lot of Americans are dead now because we stuck our nose into a region with ancient quarrels which are none of our business. That seems more like a curse than a blessing.

“But [America] goes not abroad in search monsters to destroy“ – John Q. Adams

Has anyone noticed that 19th Century America had more Christian influence accompanied by more diplomatic isolation? Also recall that Palestine was then controlled by the Islamic Ottoman Empire.

4

News Item11/18/12 8:41 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
I don't understand how God's leaders and the people who follow them can be so comfortable straying sooo far from the clear teachings in the Bible. How can they, in good conscience, make a hard left when the Bible says to turn right? How can so many walk down the stairs when the Bibles instruction to walk up was crystal clear?

This is all so strange to me because if they are all in such defiance of clear Biblical principles, then they can't possibly believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. If they don't believe that it's God's inspired word, then why even bother with anything? If I believed for a second that the Bible wasn't complete, had errors, was open to interpretation, wasn't inspired, or wasn't valid for today, I would suddenly feel so empty inside. The people who continue to defy clear instructions lead me to believe that they can't possibly take the Bible seriously so I don't understand why they even bother to continue in the faith.

3

News Item11/18/12 7:40 AM
The poster formerly known as Russ | Texas  Find all comments by The poster formerly known as Russ
Christopher000
I am seeing an alarming amount of Christians who are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and see the nation of Israel as an occupier.
I, like you, think that we must support our brothers in Israel, if for no other reason than the fact that there are 2 nations that the entire world hates. 1. USA 2. Israel. I pray for them and support them in their fight against Islam.
As for the article, I am also seeing a trend in evangelicalism to move to a more cultural friendly position and give up resisting these social issues. The mainline denominations such as presby, Methodist, and episcopal tried this same thing in the 20th century. They moved hard toward focusing on social justice issues instead of holding form on solid, biblical doctrine. Look at where they are now– they are pro abortion, they conduct gay marriage ceremonies, and even ordain homos into their pastoral offices. We have to stand strong on these issues and learn from history or evangelicals will follow the same path.
2

News Item11/18/12 7:19 AM
Christopher000 | Rhode Island  Find all comments by Christopher000
Man, we are so done. I think our friendship with Israel and our commitment to defend them is the one thread that hasn't broke yet that keeps God from washing His hands of us.

Thoughts?

1
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