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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | FF | SA News
FRONT PAGE  |  5/1/2016
THURSDAY, OCT 25, 2012  |  25 comments
Ted Haggard Says Gay Marriage Not Biblical, But Should Be Legal

Colorado evangelical pastor Ted Haggard, who was involved in a sex and drug scandal six years ago, appears to have changed his earlier position against same-sex marriage. In an online debate, he said while biblical law is against homosexual marriage, the state should allow it.

"We've reached a point where human dignity and mutual respect is so important," Haggard said in a recent online debate with Rabbi Benjamin Hecht, director of Orthodox Jewish think tank Nishma.

Responding to the question, "Should same-sex marriage be allowed by the state?" he went on to say, "If someone is dealing with same-sex attraction or homosexuality, and they want someone to be their life partner of the same gender, though we would oppose that in our churches, it should be allowed by the state." ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 25 user comment(s)
News Item10/28/12 12:45 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
justice of the peace wrote:
In a same-sex marriage paradigm, all engaged Christian couples would head to the local courthouse…
Your point? Where did I say anything about a license? And why a judge & not a notary public? “A notary's main functions are to administer oaths and affirmations, take affidavits and statutory declarations, witness and authenticate the execution of certain classes of documents, …” – Wikipedia

I only mention a notary in the event that the families (not church or state) want the marriage vow to be legally enforceable. Contrary to radical Western individualism, in most other cultures, marriage has historically (and Biblically) been a family matter.

25

News Item10/28/12 9:17 AM
justice of the peace  Find all comments by justice of the peace
Neil wrote:
Absolutely nothing, for I repeat, it is not the Biblical duty of church officers to officiate over marriages, legitimate or otherwise.
In a same-sex marriage paradigm, all engaged Christian couples would head to the local courthouse. She's in gown and he's in tux. They complete the necessary papers and walk over to the judge to be wed within fifteen minutes in her chambers. She has them recite vows like this: "I N.______ do promise to be your lawful spouse for the next five years until this license expires..."
24

News Item10/28/12 2:03 AM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Kyle wrote:
When I refer to the church defining marriage, I use it in the same context a the church administrating any other sacrament.
You may as well be talking about the RCC, for they're the ones who consider marriage a sacrament. And as yet, you're given me no Biblical reason to think it is.

I like Calvin's reasoning: “God's ordinance is good and holy; so also are agriculture, architecture, shoemaking, hair-cutting legitimate ordinances of God, but they are not sacraments.” This is not to say I agree with Reformed churches officiating marriages.

23

News Item10/28/12 12:16 AM
simo | Tasmania  Find all comments by simo
Hasnt he read Genesis 19, the last few chapters of the book of Judges and Romans chapter 1.
Dosent he know what will happen!
22

News Item10/27/12 10:36 PM
Phoebe  Find all comments by Phoebe
Concerned wrote:
I hope I didn't make you feel bad. I do enjoy your reasoning and arguments on some topics.
For the record, a few of the men have changed their handles when attacking as well, but oddly, their IP's are anonymized or spoofed. Makes one wonder...
Looking forward to reading your always interesting and sometimes intriguing posts. We need the balance that comes from the female points of view.
: )
I can assure MY feelings are not involved. It's your feelings that are making you weak.
I'm leaving early I was going to hang around for another week or so, but there is no need now.
Kia toa.
21

News Item10/27/12 10:05 PM
Kyle | Connecticut  Find all comments by Kyle
When I refer to the church defining marriage, I use it in the same context a the church administrating any other sacrament. I'm not taking about the Roman Catholic church, if that's what you're asking.

In the final analysis, the marriage covenant is made before God. Anyone can make a civil contract, but it isn't marriage any more than a real estate lease agreement is.

20

News Item10/27/12 7:27 PM
Concerned  Find all comments by Concerned
I hope I didn't make you feel bad. I do enjoy your reasoning and arguments on some topics.

For the record, a few of the men have changed their handles when attacking as well, but oddly, their IP's are anonymized or spoofed. Makes one wonder...

Looking forward to reading your always interesting and sometimes intriguing posts. We need the balance that comes from the female points of view.

: )

19

News Item10/27/12 11:20 AM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Kyle wrote:
… To say that they can marry is an admission that something outside the church decides marriage.
Which church do you mean? And how does the church “decide” marriage? Do you mean, it requires clerical validation? Please elaborate.
18

News Item10/27/12 9:25 AM
Kyle | Connecticut  Find all comments by Kyle
You didn't make anything clear.

If the state decides that two men can marry, can two men marry? That's not allowed from a scriptural point. To say that they can marry is an admission that something outside the church decides marriage. If not the state, then what? We either follow the current zeitgeist, or we don't.

17

News Item10/27/12 7:34 AM
Concerned  Find all comments by Concerned
Because, Phoebe, instead of taking the high road in the face of conflict, you and xcath went on the impersonation circuit. The both of you began hurling random insults in various threads because you are angry with a few of the guys.

I like having women on the board and have tremendous respect for the both of you because, up until recently anyway, no matter what, you stood your ground, telling posters exactly what your thoughts were. Not that you were right, not that they were right, but I always respect a strong woman who won't back down...even when ganged up on.

16

News Item10/26/12 9:58 PM
Phoebe  Find all comments by Phoebe
Concerned wrote:
Noname writes:
Is Fetter your real name? Don't post under any other name it's not allowed on this site
Get off this site Phoebe
Why?
15

News Item10/26/12 9:02 PM
Concerned  Find all comments by Concerned
Noname writes:

Is Fetter your real name? Don't post under any other name it's not allowed on this site

Get off this site Phoebe

14

News Item10/26/12 8:30 PM
Concerned  Find all comments by Concerned
Get off this site Phoebe
13

News Item10/26/12 6:20 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
impossible wrote:
When Arizona allows homosexuals to marry, and two female members of your church request your pastor marry them, what will he do?
Absolutely nothing, for I repeat, it is not the Biblical duty of church officers to officiate over marriages, legitimate or otherwise. That is a sacerdotal popish superstition not yet eliminated by alleged Protestants. Now if you want to invite your pastor to your wedding, that's fine, but he doesn't have to emcee it.

Kyle, marriage is NOT what the State decides; I thought I made that clear. It can only enforce the contractual aspects of it, in the event of a divorce suit. Hence the need for witnesses.

Broadly speaking, I should add that adultery is any sexual immorality. But still, if pagan marriage is invalid, then marital infidelity cannot by definition occur; all sex for them is merely fornication.

12

News Item10/26/12 6:04 PM
impossible  Find all comments by impossible
Neil wrote:
Exactly! So do churches officiate over pagan weddings? I've not heard of any that do; they always insist on marrying believers. Even unbelievers' marriages are valid in the sight of God, no less than a business contract might be; salvation has nothing to do with it. If there is no valid marriage outside the invisible church, then adultery is impossible, for it presupposes marriage by definition. There would only be fornication between two unmarried people.
As is often the case, Jim quotes Scripture w/o understanding it properly. Adultery is a sin, & so is theft, but no church formally involves itself over the latter sin. So why the former?
Government cannot make marriage valid or invalid. It can only enforce civil contracts.
When Arizona allows homosexuals to marry, and two female members of your church request your pastor marry them, what will he do?
11

News Item10/26/12 5:26 PM
Kyle | Connecticut  Find all comments by Kyle
So adultery is only adultery when you're married?

So marriage is whatever the state decides, then. Good to know.

10

News Item10/26/12 3:06 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Fetter wrote:
Agreed, marriage is not a matter of church jurisdiction.
But it is of divine origin. It is a creation ordinance given to all mankind. As such it has been practiced in every culture in history.
Exactly! So do churches officiate over pagan weddings? I've not heard of any that do; they always insist on marrying believers. Even unbelievers' marriages are valid in the sight of God, no less than a business contract might be; salvation has nothing to do with it. If there is no valid marriage outside the invisible church, then adultery is impossible, for it presupposes marriage by definition. There would only be fornication between two unmarried people.

As is often the case, Jim quotes Scripture w/o understanding it properly. Adultery is a sin, & so is theft, but no church formally involves itself over the latter sin. So why the former?

Government cannot make marriage valid or invalid. It can only enforce civil contracts.

9

News Item10/26/12 2:29 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Yes, marriage is a matter of church jurisdiction!

1 Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Romans 13
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.---NASB

Background to Marriage & Divorce a good sermon to listen to and would be a good book to pick up, somewhere.

8

News Item10/26/12 1:01 PM
Fetter  Find all comments by Fetter
You can hope, but a strawman nevertheless.
7

News Item10/26/12 12:53 PM
Kyle | Connecticut  Find all comments by Kyle
So if the USA is destroyed tomorrow, my marriage is officially annulled? If i move to Sweden, I'm no longer married?
6
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