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If Mitt Romney wins the presidency he would be the first Mormon president in America and Ann Romney would be the first pro-life First Lady in three decades. Ann Romney discussed abortion and other issues with celebrity hosts on one of the nation's most popular female talk shows while also defending her husband's lack of military service.
Since Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling that legalized abortion in the U.S., none of the First Ladies – even the Republican ones – were pro-life. Although First Ladies Betty Ford, Nancy Regan, Barbara Bush and Laura Bush were married to Republican presidents, none espoused pro-life positions. Both Bushes only spoke of their personal views on abortion after their husbands left office....
RecommendedbytheLord wrote: Hoani (John) 10:6 I korerotia tenei kupu whakarite e Ihu ki a ratou: heoi kihai ratou i mohio ki nga mea i korerotia ki a ia ki a ratou.
Thanks for the perspective. I might be confused by Phoebe, but she makes much more sense than this post. Thank you
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Now I am thoroughly confused, first you stated Christians place restrictions on free speech in their churches (no examples given) and wonder if the atheist and pagans had noticed the double standard of Christians demanding that right in public. Then you said that atheist don't come to church, so if they are not there noticing the free speech suppression (still not sure what that entails, forgive my ignorance please)how can they complain of an alleged double standard of which they are not aware? I am not trying to change your mind, just trying to see the not so obvious double standard. Again a church meeting and a public forum are not the same, you are comparing apples to oranges.
Hoani (John) 10:6 I korerotia tenei kupu whakarite e Ihu ki a ratou: heoi kihai ratou i mohio ki nga mea i korerotia ki a ia ki a ratou.
Phoebe wrote: Forget about the atheists - the atheists are the ones outside the church - not in it and they don't want to come to your church.
Now I am thoroughly confused, first you stated Christians place restrictions on free speech in their churches (no examples given) and wonder if the atheist and pagans had noticed the double standard of Christians demanding that right in public. Then you said that atheist don't come to church, so if they are not there noticing the free speech suppression (still not sure what that entails, forgive my ignorance please)how can they complain of an alleged double standard of which they are not aware? I am not trying to change your mind, just trying to see the not so obvious double standard. Again a church meeting and a public forum are not the same, you are comparing apples to oranges.
Phoebe wrote: --- Think of it like this: Christians talk of free speech as being a God given right - is this correct? However AT CHURCH Christian's don't demand the same rights. ---
What specifically are you saying here? What free speech is missing in the church? How do you personally define free speech? Personally, no one in my congregation has said to me, "Don't say that." I take it you have a different experience?
Unprofitable Servant wrote: The church is not a public forum for any and all to express their beliefs. I would find it hard to believe that an atheist group would allow a Christian to come in to their meeting and preach either.
Forget about the atheists - the atheists are the ones outside the church - not in it and they don't want to come to your church.
Think of it like this: Christians talk of free speech as being a God given right - is this correct? However AT CHURCH Christian's don't demand the same rights.
Where the 'atheist' came in was where I said: I wonder if atheists have noticed?
That is, the atheists outside the church who hear Christian's demanding their God given right to free-speech in the world. And then I said: Doublestandards.
You do not think so. Shall we leave it at that then. Obviously you aren't going to change my mind by keeping on posting about atheists not being entitled to a forum in your church. Although I don't see any harm in it. People who have the truth aren't afraid of it ever not being the truth are they? I would wish atheists did demand a forum in your church - it would be an opportunity to slay them with the Word of God.
Phoebe wrote: I was saying that in Christian Churches there is not the concept of free speech, however, on the other six days of the week - not the Sabbath - Christians appear to be demanding that they have free speech in public. I was saying that Christians DONT have free speech at home, but expect the world to listen to them telling everyone that they stand for free speech. Just an observation. This is not a radical concept to me. I wonder how long atheists and pagans fail to bring this up in a public forum, thats all. Doublestandards.
The church is not a public forum for any and all to express their beliefs. I would find it hard to believe that an atheist group would allow a Christian to come in to their meeting and preach either. So, I don't see it as a double standard, it seems to be the same on both sides.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: I apologize for my ignorance I don't have a clue from where you are coming. Anything we have been blessed with is due to the graciousness of our God in whose hand are all our ways. Your previous post, unless I did not understand it either, implied that Christians limit the speech of atheist and pagans in the church but hypocritically demand to use their constitutional right to the same in the world. You are comparing apples to oranges, the analogy does not work.I used the word right because you used the word in your post. The church is not a public forum for any and all to express their beliefs.
I was saying that in Christian Churches there is not the concept of free speech, however, on the other six days of the week - not the Sabbath - Christians appear to be demanding that they have free speech in public. I was saying that Christians DONT have free speech at home, but expect the world to listen to them telling everyone that they stand for free speech. Just an observation. This is not a radical concept to me.
I wonder how long atheists and pagans fail to bring this up in a public forum, thats all. Doublestandards.
Phoebe wrote: I see. All Americans have the right to free speech. Do humans really have the right to free speech if God didn't give it to them? Do humans have any rights at all?
I apologize for my ignorance I don't have a clue from where you are coming. Anything we have been blessed with is due to the graciousness of our God in whose hand are all our ways. Your previous post, unless I did not understand it either, implied that Christians limit the speech of atheist and pagans in the church but hypocritically demand to use their constitutional right to the same in the world. You are comparing apples to oranges, the analogy does not work.I used the word right because you used the word in your post. The church is not a public forum for any and all to express their beliefs.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Free speech is NOT a church right, it is a constitutional right granted to our citizens. Atheist and pagans have the same rights to voice their opinion in public that Christians have. Titus 1:9-11 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
I see. All Americans have the right to free speech. Do humans really have the right to free speech if God didn't give it to them? Do humans have any rights at all?
Phoebe wrote: It's odd isn't it? Have you noticed that Christian's place restrictions on 'free speech' in their churches but demand 'the right to free speech' in the world. I wonder if atheists and pagans have noticed?
Free speech is NOT a church right, it is a constitutional right granted to our citizens. Atheist and pagans have the same rights to voice their opinion in public that Christians have.
Titus 1:9-11 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
Phoebe wrote: It's odd isn't it? Have you noticed that Christian's place restrictions on 'free speech' in their churches but demand 'the right to free speech' in the world. I wonder if atheists and pagans have noticed?
Phoebe wrote: It's odd isn't it? Have you noticed that Christian's place restrictions on 'free speech' in their churches but demand 'the right to free speech' in the world. I wonder if atheists and pagans have noticed?
I think I agree with you, but allow me to reword it for my benefit. If I am a member of a church, then I have to tow the line of that church, especially doctrinally. Otherwise, at a minimum, I won't be a member in good standing and will be considered a trouble maker. That is why someone who has the gift of discernment, might not be welcome for long in most churches. They can't keep silent! A church or denomination often restricts what its members or leaders can say openly and publicly although they will not state that formally. It sounds like you might be saying the same thing? And then you are correct, when society says I can't say something, then everyone jumps on the freedom of speech bandwagan.
Even if we aren't talking about the same thing, your comment made me ponder the issue. I call the issue Roman/protestantism. We condemn Rome, then act like Rome, but since we condemned them, no one notices. Thanks
It's odd isn't it? Have you noticed that Christian's place restrictions on 'free speech' in their churches but demand 'the right to free speech' in the world. I wonder if atheists and pagans have noticed?
Werner2 wrote: Isn't that what you PreMills believe too Jim. Babies born during the millennial reign?
Thanks Jim; I can't believe that anyone would agree with my post since it was certainly divisive.
Werner; Your subject is very interesting, but not the same as Jim and I are talking about.
Mrs. Romney will have sex with Mitt in heaven; make spirit babies and then they will inhabit an earth that Mitt reigns over as a God.
If babies are born during the millenial reign of Christ, then they were not pro-created by Christ. There is only one God and He doesn't have sex with women.
onetim wrote: "Although First Ladies Betty Ford, Nancy Regan, Barbara Bush and Laura Bush were married to Republican presidents, none espoused pro-life positions." 1Tim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
I'm not all that sure where you are going with your thoughts, but I will say this; women are definitely prone to deception and therefore we should not allow them to be Christian teachers or leaders in any aspect. They should seek to be role models solely as wives and mothers and leave the teaching and leading to men.
Muslims don't believe in killing the unborn; the Pope doesn't believe we should do that; so I'm not sure what spiritual significance Mrs. Romney thoughts should have, if any.
According to her belief system, she will be the wife of a God and have one baby after another, after another, ad infinitum. She better be pro-life.
Dr. Mark Allison | 1/20/2013
Dr. Alan Cairns | 6/22/2009
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