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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  10/2/2014
THURSDAY, AUG 30, 2012  |  104 comments
Where Did the New Calvinism Come From?
Justin Taylor recently revived Mark Dever’s 2007 series of articles titled “Where’d All These New Calvinists Come From?” This was a ten-part series that looked to the rise of New Calvinism and sought to discover the sources of a theological resurgence.

There is one factor that neither Dever nor Taylor has listed and one I consider absolutely critical to the growth of the movement: the Internet.

The Internet has allowed people to find community based on common interest—a new kind of community that transcends any geographic boundary. It used to be that people of common interest could only find others who shared their interests within a limited geographic area. The Internet has forever changed this and this is true in any field, whether it pertains to vocation, hobby, sports, religion or anything else. As web sites began to spring up, and then individual blogs and then group blogs and then YouTube ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 104 user comment(s)
News Item9/5/12 3:40 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
Whereas Mark 1:15 "the time is fulfilled" refers to the beginning of Christ's ministry, Romans 11:25 "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" is written after the resurrection, the fulness of which had not yet happened, and so cannot be speaking of that which has already been done at the beginning of his ministry. V24 "shall these..be" and v23,26 "shall be" confirms the future tense in which v25 "until.." is written, as well as other verses.
You ask good questions, John.
Another question: Has Israel of which Paul speaks yet been provoked to jealousy per v11?
Ah Mike, it is as a breath of fresh air, your post. You are taking the whole chapter as it is. Do you also have a solution to the conundrum? How do you read it, bro.
104

News Item9/5/12 2:18 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
John UK wrote:
But Steve, if the "until" has been fulfilled, then the fulness of the Gentiles have come in, and the "blindness" from Israel has been removed. But where then is the evidence of this, if it happened in the first century? Have no Gentiles been saved since then? Have Israel been given their sight?
Whereas Mark 1:15 "the time is fulfilled" refers to the beginning of Christ's ministry, Romans 11:25 "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" is written after the resurrection, the fulness of which had not yet happened, and so cannot be speaking of that which has already been done at the beginning of his ministry. V24 "shall these..be" and v23,26 "shall be" confirms the future tense in which v25 "until.." is written, as well as other verses.

You ask good questions, John.

Another question: Has Israel of which Paul speaks yet been provoked to jealousy per v11?

103

News Item9/5/12 1:46 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
As I read it,'fullness' just means the gentiles are ready to be harvested without the process required by the Mosaic Law. That passage doesnt imply the last gentile must be saved before Hebrews can receive the Gospel.
James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
Thanks Steve, I'll just have to ponder it, as I just can't make head nor tail of it all.

Oh and thanks to Brother Lurker for your contribution and answers to my questions. Maybe one day I will see it.

102

News Item9/5/12 1:33 PM
SteveR | Upper Midwest  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
But Steve, if the "until" has been fulfilled, then the fulness of the Gentiles have come in, and the "blindness" from Israel has been removed. But where then is the evidence of this, if it happened in the first century? Have no Gentiles been saved since then? Have Israel been given their sight?
As I read it,'fullness' just means the gentiles are ready to be harvested without the process required by the Mosaic Law. That passage doesnt imply the last gentile must be saved before Hebrews can receive the Gospel.

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

101

News Item9/5/12 1:07 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
Obviously John UK, this is something you are going to need time with.
Its plain as day for me. Like I said, the 'until' has been fulfilled.
But Steve, if the "until" has been fulfilled, then the fulness of the Gentiles have come in, and the "blindness" from Israel has been removed. But where then is the evidence of this, if it happened in the first century? Have no Gentiles been saved since then? Have Israel been given their sight?
100

News Item9/5/12 10:53 AM
SteveR | Upper Midwest  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
But then Steve...
Romans 11:1 KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Paul then goes on to say there is a "remnant" of Israel, who are God's elect from Israel.
So that currently God's people are made up of Gentiles and Jews, all saved in the same, glorious way, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
But then...
Romans 11:25 KJV
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
You see, it is that little word "until". This is what confuses me. Paul seems to be saying that the "blindness" which happened to "Israel", remains "until" the Gentiles be brought in fully.
Then, it seems, the blindness is taken away.
Obviously John UK, this is something you are going to need time with.
Its plain as day for me. Like I said, the 'until' has been fulfilled.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

99

News Item9/5/12 9:10 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
Not really, and maybe why you do not appreciate this magnificent promise.
But then Steve...

Romans 11:1 KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul then goes on to say there is a "remnant" of Israel, who are God's elect from Israel.

So that currently God's people are made up of Gentiles and Jews, all saved in the same, glorious way, through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

But then...

Romans 11:25 KJV
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

You see, it is that little word "until". This is what confuses me. Paul seems to be saying that the "blindness" which happened to "Israel", remains "until" the Gentiles be brought in fully.

Then, it seems, the blindness is taken away.

98

News Item9/5/12 9:05 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
What meaneth:
...the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
...and so all Israel shall be saved.
...for this is my covenant unto them.
...but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
1) The kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given to a people bringing forth the fruit thereof (Gentiles) and will remain that way till the last day.

2) All Israel is all the seed of Abraham, called through Isaac excluding Esau whom God hated. All genuine believers are included (Gal 6:16) for Abraham is the father of us all and Sarah is the mother of us all.

3) This is the covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-33... same covenant we are in now.

4) Rom 9:11-13 the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

5) SteveR is precisely right. See the source prophecy for Paul's citation Acts 13:47....

Isa 49:6 It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

97

News Item9/5/12 8:04 AM
SteveR | Upper Midwest  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
The word Israel appears in v25 and v26. In v25 it is obviously referring to Jews.
Not really, and maybe why you do not appreciate this magnificent promise. Isaiah is talking about not just the tribe of Judah, but the ENTIRE Davidic kingdom. Remember, the nation of Israel was taken captive by the Assyrians, then later Judah taken captive by Babylon. Israel NEVER returns.

2 Kings 17:21 For he rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drave Israel from following the LORD, and made them sin a great sin.

2 Kings 17:22 For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them;

2 Kings 17:23 Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day.

The restoration of ALL of Jacob is promised by Isaiah, all Saints throughout the ages.

96

News Item9/5/12 5:07 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Thank you Lurker, but I could not follow that. Bear with me.

Romans 11:25-29 KJV
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

What meaneth:
...the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

...and so all Israel shall be saved.

...for this is my covenant unto them.

...but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Also:

The word Israel appears in v25 and v26. In v25 it is obviously referring to Jews. But then some say that when Paul uses it straight after in v26 it is referring to the elect of both Gentile and Jew. How can this be?

95

News Item9/4/12 11:25 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
John UK wrote:
Romans 11:26-29 KJV

Who do you think THEY are?
I do not know - yet.

John,

I'm entering this discussion late but allow me to add this to the other comments.

"They" are the circumcision of Paul's day, that is, the Jews and the absorbed tribe of Benjamin who were broken off the olive tree; a type of the covenant of grace aka Zion. They fell from grace (actually were booted out quite unceremoniously) into the Mosaic covenant aka the curse.

See 1 Cor 15:50-58 and then Isaiah 25 to see that the state of blindness (the vail) imposed on the circumcision will not be removed until Christ's second coming at the great white throne judgement.

Contrary to Dispy teaching, any Jew who has not been grafted into the olive tree when the vail cast over the circumcision is destroyed and death is swallowed up in victory, will not be found written in the book of life and will be cast into the lake of fire.

The end is the end "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord..."

Great comments SteveR & jpw.

94

News Item9/4/12 7:24 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
SteveR wrote:
I feel my brother in Christ Guido de Bräs explains that soveriegnty well in Art 13 of the Belgic Confession
The Doctrine of God's Providence
We believe that this good God, after he created all things, did not abandon them to chance or fortune but leads and governs them according to his holy will,
(1)in such a way that nothing happens in this world without his orderly arrangement.
(2)Yet God is not the author of, nor can he be charged with, the sin that occurs. For his power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible that he arranges and does his work very well and justly even when the devils and wicked men act unjustly.
(3)We do not wish to inquire with undue curiosity into what he does that surpasses human understanding and is beyond our ability to comprehend. But in all humility and reverence we adore the just judgments of God, which are hidden from us, being content to be Christ's disciples, so as to learn only what he shows us in his Word, without going beyond those limits.(cont)
Condensed:
(1) Nothing happens without God's orderly arrangement.

(2) God is not the author of sin, thus sin is not part of the nothing that happens without it.

(3) Do not prove all things, holding fast that which is good, but be pious

93

News Item9/4/12 6:56 PM
yeolddustybooksstillbless  Find all comments by yeolddustybooksstillbless
Agree with John yet it is wise to be armed with sound books!

Moravians were reading Martin Luther's Preface to the Epistle to the Romans and John Wesley found his heart strangely warmed God granting a spiritual awakening in his soul. His brother Charles Wesley found peace with God after God granted an understanding of justification by faith alone through reading...wait for it...Luther's commentary on Galatians. ( Bunyan described it as "before all the books that ever I have seen, as most fit for a wounded conscience.")

Every good biblicist can be thankful that God has gifted teachers and pastors as His instruments to reach lost sinners and edify the saints, don't let us despise the reading of sound books for they might well explain the gospel far better than we sermonaudio commentators!

According to Leonard Ravenhill: 'The lamp that lit the path that led to the kingdom for Whitefield was a book. At Oxford, Charles Wesley had seen Whitefield and passed on to him (the Puritan) Henry Scougal's The Life of God in the Soul of Man .

'I never knew what true religion was till God sent me this excellent treatise.'
—George Whitefield

http://www.redemptivehistory.org/sureguide.pdf

92

News Item9/4/12 5:21 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
KJV English speaking-Onlyist wrote:
John UK:
And leave it only to people like Jim to use that to say that we need "new, better, 'understandable',ect" [per]verion.
My dear young friend. Jim has not yet got the savvy to realise that God's word is spiritual and needs discerning spiritually. When Jesus accompanied two of his disciples going home, he expounded to them the OT scriptures concerning himself. They did not even know it was Jesus, but their hearts were warmed when he preached the word. They were warmed even more when he opened their minds to understand the scriptures. This is what is required especially. Men may adequately "preach the word" and help us with biblical concepts and doctrines, but when the Lord himself opens the word, it is far more powerful. Which is why I like to give out a John's Gospel in the hope that it be read and studied, and I pray the Lord quickens the reader and makes the word really come to life.
91

News Item9/4/12 4:29 PM
KJV English speaking-Onlyist  Find all comments by KJV English speaking-Onlyist
John UK:
Ha! I knew when I read my post back that it sounded like that. But nay, bro, there are a multitude of verses I do not know what they mean; and a further multitude of verses that I have not yet sounded their depths. God's word is a deep mine, and some of it is hard digging.

And leave it only to people like Jim to use that to say that we need "new, better, 'understandable',ect" [per]verion.

90

News Item9/4/12 4:03 PM
SteveR | Upper Midwest  Find all comments by SteveR
Mike wrote:
Some fatalists even propose that God's sovereignty requires that all that is being done in earth, IS God's will.
I feel my brother in Christ Guido de Bräs explains that soveriegnty well in Art 13 of the Belgic Confession

The Doctrine of God's Providence

We believe that this good God, after he created all things, did not abandon them to chance or fortune but leads and governs them according to his holy will, in such a way that nothing happens in this world without his orderly arrangement.
Yet God is not the author of, nor can he be charged with, the sin that occurs. For his power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible that he arranges and does his work very well and justly even when the devils and wicked men act unjustly.

We do not wish to inquire with undue curiosity into what he does that surpasses human understanding and is beyond our ability to comprehend. But in all humility and reverence we adore the just judgments of God, which are hidden from us, being content to be Christ's disciples, so as to learn only what he shows us in his Word, without going beyond those limits.(cont)

89

News Item9/4/12 3:48 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Some fatalists even propose that God's sovereignty requires that all that is being done in earth, IS God's will. And some say the kingdom has already come, yet think they believe the words of the Lords prayer which petitions for his will to be done, and for the coming of the kingdom. Sometimes we have to ask, who is it slicing up Scripture?
88

News Item9/4/12 3:26 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
The Biblical witness in its entirety allows us to distinguish what it 'can' mean and what it 'cant.' As jpw emphasized, that witness disallows the dispensational argument.
btw: Dispensationalists slice up the Bible, and consider only a few parts apply to the 'Church Age.' The even deny the Lords prayer
Why?
"Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth."
They wish to free themselves from doing God's Will on earth
Steve, there are some strange people about, as even a brief visit to these forums will show.
87

News Item9/4/12 3:06 PM
SteveR | Upper Midwest  Find all comments by SteveR
John UK wrote:
Ha! I knew when I read my post back that it sounded like that. But nay, bro, there are a multitude of verses I do not know what they mean; and a further multitude of verses that I have not yet sounded their depths. God's word is a deep mine, and some of it is hard digging.
The Biblical witness in its entirety allows us to distinguish what it 'can' mean and what it 'cant.' As jpw emphasized, that witness disallows the dispensational argument.

btw: Dispensationalists slice up the Bible, and consider only a few parts apply to the 'Church Age.' The even deny the Lords prayer

Why?

"Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth."

They wish to free themselves from doing God's Will on earth

86

News Item9/4/12 2:57 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
SteveR wrote:
Only one verse John UK? If so, you are doing far better than I
Ha! I knew when I read my post back that it sounded like that. But nay, bro, there are a multitude of verses I do not know what they mean; and a further multitude of verses that I have not yet sounded their depths. God's word is a deep mine, and some of it is hard digging.
85
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