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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  10/25/2014
THURSDAY, AUG 16, 2012  |  71 comments
Paul Ryan, Joe Biden: A Tale Of Two Catholics

The 2012 presidential campaign could bear a new subtitle: A Tale of Two Catholics.

For the first time in U.S. history, both sides of the ballot include Roman Catholics: Democrats' Vice President Joe Biden, and Republicans' newly named vice presidential candidate Paul Ryan.

Ryan, 42, still belongs to the Catholic parish, St. John Vianney in Janesville, Wis., where he was an altar boy. Biden, 69, the first Catholic vice president in U.S. history, attends Mass at St. Patrick's Parish and St. Joseph on the Brandywine Church, both in Wilmington, De.

Biden and Ryan both cite their faith as a formative influence, but neither is known as a standard-bearer for the Catholic hierarchy's chief political causes: abortion and gay marriage. In fact, the two candidates are -- politically at least -- nearly polar opposites. ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 71 user comment(s)
News Item8/20/12 7:50 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Frank wrote:
1) Luther also used a word that sort of fits pilgrim better (fremdling). He thought it was more of an internal feeling (someone who didn't feel like they belonged where they were)

2) and being exiled sort of implies that they were forced out?

3) Anyway, I am a stranger and (whatever other word you want to use) in this world and that is the meaning I always got from those verses and others.

1) Found it on Google. Yes, seems to give the same sense as Pilgrim.

2) Exactly, which is why I asked Jim, being an NASB fan, "exiled from where". (I seldom get involved in the translation discussions but every once in a while I can't resist scoring a point. )

2b) Btw, I believe that Peter's use of the same word (1 Peter 2:11) actually carries the sense of "exiles" if you interpret the strangers and pilgrims he was writing to the very same which were scattered abroad from Jerusalem after Stephen was stoned (Acts 8:1).

3) Amen, brother.

jpw wrote:
We need to study our politics more deeply!
May I recommend A Lamp In The Dark - The Untold History Of The Bible. A three hour documentary.... very well done and very sobering.
71

News Item8/20/12 7:00 PM
Jesus Saves | Ormond Beach, FL  Find all comments by Jesus Saves
Which one would be less willing to follow the RCI ways.
70

News Item8/20/12 3:40 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
perceptions wrote:
1. Anybody can read and regurgitate the english words John. Even Mormons, Roman Catholics, JW's, cults, Arminians, socinians, antinomians, atheists, etc etc etc.
2. But as the Calvinists and the Puritans always teach and say; It is God who in Sovereignty elects and provides the indwelling Holy Spirit - which makes all the difference between the dead and alive.
3. As for "loving" John - God commands that we Love our neighbour and our enemy.
4. "13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
"31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?"
1. And yet you are unable to discern God's grace in me?

2. You don't have the monopoly on this.

3. Sure, but we are exhorted to love "especially" the household of faith. And yet YOU don't seem to know who they are.

4. Praise God that he does do that!

So the question remains: How come the Presbyterians cannot see the error of their ways, but go blindly with the flow, ignoring scripture, but following their ancient mentors?

69

News Item8/20/12 3:32 PM
perceptions  Find all comments by perceptions
John UK wrote:
Are you hearing me?
Anybody can read and regurgitate the english words John. Even Mormons, Roman Catholics, JW's, cults, Arminians, socinians, antinomians, atheists, etc etc etc.

But as the Calvinists and the Puritans always teach and say; It is God who in Sovereignty elects and provides the indwelling Holy Spirit - which makes all the difference between the dead and alive.

As for "loving" John - God commands that we Love our neighbour and our enemy.

"13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

"31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?"

68

News Item8/20/12 3:16 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
perceptions wrote:
I demonstrated that your premise is faulty.
And I shall demonstrate that your demonstration is faulty. Observe:

1 John 4:6-8 KJV
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

and

1 John 4:11-12 KJV
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Now I think it be obvious, even to a dullard, that God expects us to discern who is our brother and who is an impostor. Otherwise, how could we possibly obey his command to "love one another".

also

Did you see what verse 6 says?: "....he that is not of God heareth not us."

Are you hearing me?

67

News Item8/20/12 3:04 PM
perceptions  Find all comments by perceptions
John UK wrote:
You really shouldn't argue against the word of God. That makes you an unbelieving rebel.
You are the one who put forward that verse as a premise to prove what you had previously stated in relation to evidence of a true Christian.

I demonstrated that your premise is faulty.

My original statement then stands that YOU cannot tell from the outside who is a true believer or not. Which fact shows that your Baptist hypothesis of so called "Believers Baptism" - Is evidently and obviously flawed.

Perhaps it is time for you to go back to the strong Biblical Christians - the Puritans - and learn the facts.

-------------

Jim Linkon
I think it is John UK who needs your advice.

66

News Item8/20/12 2:54 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Perceptions to add to your perception,

Romans 3
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.---NASB

I really suggest that you read, Do Mormons believe the same as Christians do?--- What is it that separates Mormonism from traditional Christianity?, Should Roman Catholicism really be classified as a Christian religion? -- No. and to put the above into a one fairly neat package, Roman Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. From this URL this excerpt:

Mike Gendron wrote:
...All three preach ‚Äúanother Jesus‚ÄĚ and ‚Äúanother gospel‚ÄĚ under the ‚Äúsupernatural authority‚ÄĚ of man‚Äôs teachings and traditions. All three teach salvation is based on what man does for God rather than believing what God has already done for man through Jesus Christ. Each religion demands total, blind and unquestionable submission...
It gets
65

News Item8/20/12 2:51 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
perceptions wrote:
John.
This was taken from a Mormon site. Quote; "Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer" Mormon Site
Question is the Mormon a true Christian according to your premise?
Ahem.......my premise?

I guess it just slipped your notice that it was GOD who said that "whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God".

The mormons do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, obviously, therefore they are NOT born of God.

You really shouldn't argue against the word of God. That makes you an unbelieving rebel.

64

News Item8/20/12 2:31 PM
perceptions  Find all comments by perceptions
John UK wrote:
Observe:
1 John 5:1 KJV
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
John.
This was taken from a Mormon site. Quote; "Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer" Mormon Site

Question is the Mormon a true Christian according to your premise?
------
This is one from the Roman Catholics,
Quote; "but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son." Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father's one, perfect and unsurpassable Word." Roman Catholic site

Question; Does this declaration make Roman Catholics fit into your designation of true Christian??
--------
What about the folks referred to by Jesus in Matt 7:21-23?
Are you convinced they are true Christians? After all they sound as though they fit the bill.

63

News Item8/20/12 10:46 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
only by the Book wrote:
a) Now c'mon John, don't back down now. You said you didn't want to belong to the Biblical Puritan position. You stick with the alternatives and be honest around here.
b) The only way you can definitely discern a true believer, John, is by reading the heart. Only God can do that.
Otherwise its just ye old Baptist lottery!!
And don't forget age discrimination and depth of water is completely unBiblical. Especially when Baptists use it to split God's Church up.
a) I didn't say belong, but stand.

b) Are you saying that it is not possible to discern a true believer? Wow, the new birth doesn't make much difference then in your eyes. You do God a great injustice. How then do you discern whether the parents of babies you are going to baptise are genuine or not?

Observe:

1 John 5:1 KJV
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Are you saying that you don't love believers because you can't discern whether God has begotten them?

Frank, Amen, I also.

62

News Item8/20/12 10:43 AM
Frank | Clearwater, FL  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
John UK wrote:
Personally, I will stand with any and all who love me because I am twice-born. That way, I stand with all who are on their way to heaven despite some doctrinal differences between us.
1 John 5:1 KJV
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Now it is a fact that if the Reformed Presbyterians were to cease baptising infants and baptise only believers, refuse to ordain clergy, maintain PO in worship, and desist from any militant attitude or state involvement, and other such matters which need to be revised in the WCF, then you would have a church which adhered very closely to the NT pattern. In fact, it may even be the closest.
What a great comment. Yes, I love you because you are twice born even if we differ on some things. But "if" we differ, then you are wrong.

I call most of today's religion simply Roman/Protestantism. We are both stangers and "Pilgrims" in this world and both of us are simply looking forward to the day when we will finally be home.

61

News Item8/20/12 10:30 AM
only by the Book  Find all comments by only by the Book
John UK wrote:
a) Personally, I will stand with any and all who love me because I am twice-born.

b) baptise only believers

a) Now c'mon John, don't back down now. You said you didn't want to belong to the Biblical Puritan position. You stick with the alternatives and be honest around here.

b) The only way you can definitely discern a true believer, John, is by reading the heart. Only God can do that.

Otherwise its just ye old Baptist lottery!!

And don't forget age discrimination and depth of water is completely unBiblical. Especially when Baptists use it to split God's Church up.

60

News Item8/20/12 10:14 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Personally, I will stand with any and all who love me because I am twice-born. That way, I stand with all who are on their way to heaven despite some doctrinal differences between us.

1 John 5:1 KJV
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Now it is a fact that if the Reformed Presbyterians were to cease baptising infants and baptise only believers, refuse to ordain clergy, maintain PO in worship, and desist from any militant attitude or state involvement, and other such matters which need to be revised in the WCF, then you would have a church which adhered very closely to the NT pattern. In fact, it may even be the closest.

Ahh, but the thick tomes keeps them from thinking for themselves, and they will never be allowed to be elders unless they toe the old-time party line.

BTW Bc, if I was to quote some of the sayings of some of those men you mentioned, you would be at me like a dog at a bone.

59

News Item8/20/12 10:00 AM
Frank | Clearwater, FL  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Lurker wrote:
Hello Frank and thanks for your comment.
I agree with your conclusion but bear in mind that in the context of this discussion; Pilgrims refers to a people who took a different path of following Christ than their Christian brothers the Puritans.
In the context of Hebrews 11, I believe "exiles" (NASB), in lieu of "Pilgrims" (KJV) gives the wrong sense. The OT saints patiently sojourned in hope of a better resurrection and a heavenly city built by God.
Thanks for your kindness. Luther also used a word that sort of fits pilgrim better (fremdling). He thought it was more of an internal feeling (someone who didn't feel like they belonged where they were) and being exiled sort of implies that they were forced out? Anyway, I am a stranger and (whatever other word you want to use) in this world and that is the meaning I always got from those verses and others.

Thanks for responding.

58

News Item8/20/12 9:57 AM
Biblicalvinism  Find all comments by Biblicalvinism
It is probably correct and only fair that some people should separate themselves from the Puritans and reformed doctrine and theology. Simply because they do not doctrinally or theologically belong to this Biblical group of Christians.

These then are some of the Biblical Reformed Puritans from which they separate themselves, theologically and doctrinally::
Richard Sibbes John Owen
Thomas Watson Thomas Brooks
Thomas Boston John Bunyan
John Flavel Jonathan Edwards
Stephen Charnock Thomas Goodwin
Thomas Shepard William Guthrie
John Robinson Thomas Manton
Thomas Case William Bridge
John Ball John Howe
Richard Baxter Hugh Binning
Thomas Gouge Joseph Alleine
William Bates John Colquhoun
David Clarkson Richard Steele
John Cotton Anthony Burgess
Ebenezer Erskine Jeremiah Burroughs
William Gurnall Matthew Henry
Thomas Adams Matthew Mead
Philip Doddridge Isaac Ambrose
Benjamin Brook William Perkins
Herman Witsius Walter Marshall
Henry Bullinger Edward Reynolds
Ezekiel Hopkins James Ussher
Daniel Neal...... and many more.

57

News Item8/20/12 9:33 AM
jpw  Find all comments by jpw
many left not because they felt the need to be separatists but because they were being pursued by the reformers who wanted to stop their move toward recreating the Acts church of volunatary association! The reformers saw the protestants to be an interference to rebuilding the church/state. There were many martyrs, and for them, not with the RCC making the judgements but the reform leaders. The reform leaders would even consider the burnings to be an act of God of sorts, such as the Holy Spirit taking out Ananias.

We need to study our politics more deeply!

We talk of Muslems and Communists pursuing home meetings....ah add the Reformers!

(and I am one rather bent toward Reform theology, since it seems largely historical, but not for their formation of the church and treatment of each other!)

56

News Item8/20/12 9:20 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Frank wrote:
Pilgrim:
an adjective signifying "sojourning in a strange place, away from one's own people" (para, "from," expressing a contrary condition, and epidemeo, "to sojourn;" demos, "a people"), is used of OT saints, Hbr 11:13, "pilgrims" (coupled with xenos, "a foreigner"); of Christians, 1Pe 1:1, "sojourners (of the Dispersion)," RV; Hbr 2:11, "pilgrims" (coupled with paroikos, "an alien, sojourner"); the word is thus used metaphorically of those to whom Heaven is their own country, and who are sojourners on earth.
In answer to your question, they were exiled "from their own people" according to the KJV (see above); hence they were pilgrims. The KJ also translates the same word as strangers in 1 Peter. But, the author was simply trying to say this is not our home! See verse He 11:14
Hello Frank and thanks for your comment.

I agree with your conclusion but bear in mind that in the context of this discussion; Pilgrims refers to a people who took a different path of following Christ than their Christian brothers the Puritans.

In the context of Hebrews 11, I believe "exiles" (NASB), in lieu of "Pilgrims" (KJV) gives the wrong sense. The OT saints patiently sojourned in hope of a better resurrection and a heavenly city built by God.

55

News Item8/20/12 6:08 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Of course, if the Lord had chosen to, he could have given the Hebrews the whole land of Egypt to dwell in permanently. He had already wiped out all the firstborn in Egypt, and it would have been easy enough to wipe out the rest. But he chose not to do that, even though he still had to wipe out the whole of the chasing army, when the Hebrews had crossed the Red Sea, and all the soldiers drowned when the wall of sea came crashing down on them, and they couldn't escape because the Lord had unfastened the wheel nuts on their chariots and all the wheels came off.
54

News Item8/19/12 11:57 PM
Frank | Clearwater, FL  Contact via emailFind all comments by Frank
Lurker wrote:
Too bad you've sold your soul to a modern version, Jim. If you had a real bible you'd know that Christians are not "exiles" (NASB) (exiled from where, exactly?) but rather strangers and Pilgrims in a land that is not or own....

Hbr 11:13 ¶ These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. KJV

Pilgrim:

an adjective signifying "sojourning in a strange place, away from one's own people" (para, "from," expressing a contrary condition, and epidemeo, "to sojourn;" demos, "a people"), is used of OT saints, Hbr 11:13, "pilgrims" (coupled with xenos, "a foreigner"); of Christians, 1Pe 1:1, "sojourners (of the Dispersion)," RV; Hbr 2:11, "pilgrims" (coupled with paroikos, "an alien, sojourner"); the word is thus used metaphorically of those to whom Heaven is their own country, and who are sojourners on earth.

In answer to your question, they were exiled "from their own people" according to the KJV (see above); hence they were pilgrims. The KJ also translates the same word as strangers in 1 Peter. But, the author was simply trying to say this is not our home! See verse He 11:14

53

News Item8/19/12 5:15 PM
Biblicalvinism  Find all comments by Biblicalvinism
jpw wrote:
reformers left the RCC and then tried to reestablish a societal/government church instead of an elect church separate from state
One of the problems I see in your "concern" is the concept of separation from what you call "the state" If you mean polititians running the church then I agree. They can't. But today the concept of separating church from state has alienated the church from Christian and Biblical input into the society and community.
Witness to the nation as a whole simply doesn't get off the ground. For this reason the western nations today have no idea whatsoever why the "church" - whatever that means to them - discriminates against homosexuality. What the Bible says, ergo what God says on this subject and many other topics doesn't go public. If separation means that the church becomes an exclusive club, as indeed it has today, then the church is limiting and failing witness in the nation. There are necessary vocal Biblical witness precepts which should reach the nation, but because some of the denominations form this exclusive little club - and appear to be scared of going more public - then God's precepts are not being proclaimed to the broadest range possible, and the secular Liberal reprobates are defeating the church ..
52
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