Actor Liam Neeson has told the Andrew Marr Show that, as a child, he was inspired to become an actor by watching Ian Paisley make political and religious speeches.
The actor said he would creep into Mr Paisley's gospel hall in Ballymena, County Antrim, to hear him preach. It was an "electrifying" experience, he said. "He was a firebrand. He was like a throwback to some 19th century preacher and bible thumper.
"He was very intimidating, but extraordinary. I remember a couple of times creeping into his gospel hall to hear him. He was a big, big man, I'm 6ft 4in and he was my height but twice as broad....
and so aka Seaton wrote: As you can see from the Reformed theologians I have posted they see things differently.
I see Jesus saying "this day is this scripture fulfilled" and John Calvin saying 'No, that's wrong. It was fulfilled in 516 BC'. You choose to believe Calvin and I choose to believe Jesus. It's that simple.
Orthodox2 wrote: Looks like typical Presby hermeneutics from Seaton viz. They will insist that there is absolutely no discontinuity between OT and NT except for what Christ fulfilled of the ceremonial law, and then they pick and choose what should be carried into the NT at their whim. If they don't like it, they ignore it, and if it suits their purpose they call is "orthodox".
Pick and choose hermenuetics = "orthodox". Only in the fanciful land of the Presby.
Lurker wrote: Mocking the only hermeneutic with biblical warrant
Your "hermeneutics"??? Your conclusions??? Therefore the "warrant" you submit is yours alone!!!
As you can see from the Reformed theologians I have posted they see things differently. But so has it been throughout history that there are opposing interpretations of Scripture. The question being who has the correct one to confirm John 16:13.
God be with you!
Luke 4:17 "There is no doubt that Christ deliberately selected this passage. Some think that it was presented to him by God; but, as a liberty of choice was allowed him, I choose to say that, by his own judgment, he took this passage in preference to others. Isaiah there predicts that, after the Babylonish captivity, there will still be witnesses of the grace of God, who shall gather the people from destruction, and from the darkness of death, and restore, by a spiritual power, the Church, which has been overwhelmed by so many calamities. But as that redemption was to be proclaimed in the name and authority of Christ alone, he uses the singular number, and speaks in the name of Christ, that he may more powerfully awaken the minds of the godly to strong confidence.... (John Calvin)
Lurker wrote: Mocking the only hermeneutic with biblical warrant, Seaton? ...I suspected that bringing the prophets to bear on Romans 1:18 was over your head so, considering you have no appetite for the hermeneutic, I'll take my leave.
Looks like typical Presby hermeneutics from Seaton viz. They will insist that there is absolutely no discontinuity between OT and NT except for what Christ fulfilled of the ceremonial law, and then they pick and choose what should be carried into the NT at their whim. If they don't like it, they ignore it, and if it suits their purpose they call is "orthodox".
alternatively wrote: Why not make it easier Lurker and try to convince somebody that the entire book of Isaiah is cut and pasted by Paul into Romans 1:18...
Mocking the only hermeneutic with biblical warrant, Seaton?
Luk 4:16 Â¶ And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
I suspected that bringing the prophets to bear on Romans 1:18 was over your head so, considering you have no appetite for the hermeneutic, I'll take my leave.
Lurker wrote: Another prophecy which came to pass concurrent with Romans 1:18-32: Isa 24:1-23
Isaiah 24; "It is agreed that here begins a new sermon, which is continued to the end of chap.7. And in it the prophet, according to the directions he had received, does, in many precious promises, "say to the righteous, It shall be well with them;â€™â€™ and, in many dreadful threatenings, he says, "Woe to the wicked, it shall be ill with themâ€™â€™ (3:10,11); and these are interwoven, that they may illustrate each other. This chapter is mostly threatening; and, as the judgments threatened are very sore and grievous ones, so the people threatened with those judgments are very many. It is not the burden of any particular city or kingdom, as those before, but the burden of the whole earth. The word indeed signifies only the land, because our own land is commonly to us as all the earth. But it is here explained by another word that is not so confined; it is the world (v.4); so that it must at least take in a whole neighbourhood of nations. 1. Some think (and very probably) that it is a prophecy of the great havoc that Sennacherib and his Assyrian army should now shortly make of many of the nations in that part of the world" (M.Henry)
Lurker wrote: Another prophecy which came to pass concurrent with Romans 1:18-32: Isa 24:1-23
Why not make it easier Lurker and try to convince somebody that the entire book of Isaiah is cut and pasted by Paul into Romans 1:18...
Isaiah 60 "This whole chapter is all to the same purport, all in the same strain; it is a part of Godâ€™s covenant with his church, which is spoken of in the last verse of the foregoing chapter, and the blessings here promised are the fruits of the word and Spirit there promised. The long continuance of the church, even unto the utmost ages of time, was there promised, and here the large extent of the church, even unto the utmost regions of the earth; and both these tend to the honour of the Redeemer. It is here promised, I. That the church shall be enlightened and shone upon (v. 1, v. 2). II. That it shall be enlarged and great additions made to it, to join in the service of God (v. 3-8) .....
Romans 1:19-32 "In this last part of the chapter the apostle applies what he had said particularly to the Gentile world, in which we may observe,I. The means and helps they had to come to the knowledge of God ...." (M.Henry)
Another prophecy which came to pass concurrent with Romans 1:18-32:
Isa 24:1-23 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant (Rom 1:31). Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth (Gal 3:10-13), and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in. The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree (Rom 11:17), and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison (Rom 11:32), and after many days shall they be visited. Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously (Is 52:7 cf. Rom 10:15).
research wrote: Zion appears to be the equivalent of Jerusalem.
Good work, Sherlock.
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Two covenants figured by Sinai and Zion which are figured by Hagar and Sarah which are figured by Jerusalem in bondage with her children in Paul's day and Jerusalem which is above.
(Source prophecy of Gal 4:27)
Is 54:1-8 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. For thy Maker is thine husband...
Meaning the daughter of Zion is Christ's bride.
Didn't I recently write... "Zion is the covenant of grace (olive tree of Rom 11:11-36) and all who dwelt therein."?
Meaning of the Word: "A name applied to Jerusalem, or to certain parts of it, at least since the time of David. Nothing certain is known of the meaning. Gesenius and others have derived it from a Hebrew root tsahah, "to be dry"; Delitzsch from tsiwwah, "to set up" and Wetzstein from tsin, "to protect.""
"The Zion of the Jebusites: Jerus (in the form Uru-sa-lim) is the oldest name we know for this city; it goes back at least 400 years before David. In 2 Sam 5:6-9, "The king and his men went to Jerusalem against the Jebusites. .... Nevertheless David took the stronghold of Zion; the same is the city of David .... And David dwelt in the stronghold, and called it the city of David." It is evident that Zion was the name of the citadel of the Jebusite city of Jerusalem."
"Zion of the Prophets: Zion, renamed the City of David, then originally was on this eastern ridge. But the name did not stay there. It would almost seem as if the name was extended to the Temple site when the ark was carried there, for in the pre-exilic Prophets the references to Zion all appear to have referred to the Temple Hill."
"Zion in Later Poetical Writings and Apocrypha: In many of the later writings, particularly poetical references, Zion appears to be the equivalent of Jerusalem.....
Isa 60:10-14 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Now, Seaton. Did Paul's Gentile converts do what God said they would do in this prophecy? Did they come to the heavenly city of Jerusalem (Heb 11:16, 12:22); to the throne of grace (Heb 4:16) and worship at His footstool (Ps 132:7); at His eternal habitation?
Psa 132:13-18 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell...
Cyril8 wrote: 1. The Covenant of Grace is the Covenant between God and man for salvation in Christ.
2. Psalm 78:68 [snip]
1) Doesn't change the fact that it is referred to by many names such as everlasting covenant, covenant of peace, law of faith, olive tree, Zion.
2) So, Zion is a piece of real estate in the Middle East?
Isa 49:14-26 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me. Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth. Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles...
This prophecy began to come to pass at Romans 1:18.
2. Zion is aka the tribe of Judah (Ps 78:68) who were cast out of God's grace. Hence, God's wrath (Rom 1:18) was revealed against Judah.
1. The Covenant of Grace is the Covenant between God and man for salvation in Christ.
2. Psalm 78:68 refers to (a) God chose the tribe of Judah, the tribe of David and Jesus. (Instead of Ephraim v67). And (b) secondly chose the mountain of Zion, where the city of David was, to be the seat of His sanctuary, and where the ark was brought. "When God chose not the tribe of Ephraim,(v.67) of which tribe Joshua was, he chose the tribe of Judah (v.68), because of that tribe Jesus was to be, who is greater than Joshua. Kirjath-jearim, the place to which the ark was brought after its rescue out of the hands of the Philistines, was in the tribe of Judah. There it took possession of that tribe; but thence it was removed to Zion, the Mount Zion which he loved (v.68), which was beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth; there it was that he built his sanctuary like high palaces and like the earth, v.69." (M.Henry)
I appreciate your thoughts, Mike. If my personal bible studies hadn't begun with the prophets I most likely would have come to a similar conclusion. But all the prophecies which come to pass in Paul's day will not permit it as I will demonstrate in my reply to Seaton.
Let's do some bible study, Seaton. Follow along to make sure I'm not proof-texting.
(Prophetic citation indicating fulfillment) Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. (See also Rom 13:11-12)
(Source) Is 60:1-3 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
(Who arise?) 60:14 The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
(Context) 60:10 FOR IN MY WRATH I SMOTE THEE (Zion), but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
Zion is the covenant of grace (olive tree of Rom 11:11-36) and all who dwelt therein. Zion is aka the tribe of Judah (Ps 78:68) who were cast out of God's grace. Hence, God's wrath (Rom 1:18) was revealed against Judah.
Hi Lurker. Basically Iâ€™ve come to think this. Paulâ€™s letter is written to both Greek and Jew. Romans seems to be divided up into sections according as Paul has determined who should be addressed.
Rom 1primarily to the Gentile believers: v13 ref â€śamong you also, even as among other Gentiles.â€ť v14 ref being debtor to Greeks and barbarians (basically all nations) v15 â€śSo...â€ť ( because of this debt) I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.â€ť Notice, not â€śto them,â€ť but â€śto you.â€ť
However, v18 speaks of mankind in general â€śall unrighteousness and ungodliness of menâ€ť which does not exclude any group. We may consider also those who were drowned in the great Flood in this. They too were without excuse: Gen:6:12-â€śAnd God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.â€ť
Rom 2 attends more to the Jew. With â€śThereforeâ€ť of v1, in light of what applies to all men, he who condemns another for something, condemns himself if doing the same.
Rom2:11,12 wrath may apply to Jew or Gentile.
Rom 2:16-29 seems to speak to hypocritical Jews, who have been given more light yet are condemned for being blind guides, not true Jews at all, certainly not better than the Gentiles they look down on.
"Now, finally letâ€™s look at Paulâ€™s explanation of the revelation of the wrath of God. Paul starts his discussion in Romans 1:18. What he is going to say is that Godâ€™s wrath is revealed against the â€śunrighteousnessâ€ť of the whole world but he is not going to do that by starting off with the whole world. No, Paul is going to divide his examination of the world into three groups. First, Paul will explain why the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against the great-unwashed mass of Gentiles the world over."
"Then Paul goes after that group â€śself-righteous moralizersâ€ť in the middle. It is hard to tell whether he has someone in mind like the Greek Stoics who prided themselves on moderation in all things or whether he has in mind the moralistic Jews like the Sadducees."
"So, following Stott and others I am placing here an overlapping category that I will call the â€ścritical moralistâ€ť in the middle. I may include moralistic Gentiles or even non-religious Jews who would argue that those pagan Gentiles described in 1:18-32 are deserving of Godâ€™s judgment but that they in light of their superior moral enlightenment ought not be lumped together with the sinful masses." (Rev T.R.Browning)
"Article 12 ..... Wherefore also, man is himself rightly said to believe and repent, by virtue of that grace received.
Article 13. The manner of this operation cannot be fully comprehended by believers in this life. Notwithstanding which, they rest satisfied with knowing and experiencing, that by this grace of God they are enabled to believe with the heart, and love their Savior.
Article 14. Faith is therefore to be considered as the gift of God, not on account of its being offered by God to man, to be accepted or rejected at his pleasure; but because it is in reality conferred, breathed, and infused into him; or even because God bestows the power or ability to believe, and then expects that man should by the exercise of his own free will, consent to the terms of that salvation, and actually believe in Christ; but because he who works in man both to will and to do, and indeed all things in all, produces both the will to believe, and the act of believing also."
"There is no epistle in which the apostle places his apostleship on more positive and formal ground than in this; for at Rome he had no claim in virtue of his labours. He had never seen the Romans. He was none the less their apostle; for he was that of the Gentiles. He was a debtor to the Gentiles. He writes to them because he had received a mission from the Lord Himself towards all the Gentiles. They were in his allotted sphere of service as being Gentiles. It was his office to present them as an offering sanctified by the Holy Ghost (chap. 15:16). This was his commission. God was mighty in Peter towards the Jews; the mission of Paul was to the Gentiles. It was to him this mission was entrusted."
"The apostle begins with the Gentiles-"all ungodliness" of men. I say the Gentiles (it is evident that if a Jew falls into it, this guilt attaches to him; but the condition described, as far as chapter 2:17, is that of Gentiles); afterwards that of the Jews, to chapter 3:20."
"Chapter 1:18 is the thesis of the whole argument from verse 19 to chapter 3:20, this part of the epistle shewing the ground of that wrath.
The Gentiles are without excuse on two accounts. First, that which may be known of God has been manifested by creation-His power and His Godhead...." (John Darby)
Mike wrote: Romans written to believers of both Jew and Gentile background.
No problem with that, Mike. But the point which seems to have caused contention is the identity of exactly who God's wrath was kindled against (Rom 1:18-32); who He gave up to uncleanness (Rom 1:24); who He gave over to reprobation (Rom 1:28).
Seaton quoted Matthew Henry who laid God's wrath to the charge of "the Gentile world" while many prophecies seem to come to fulfillment early in Paul's ministry indicating that God's wrath was kindled against His servants who ruled over His people (Is 52:5 cf. Rom 2:24); namely the Jews who apparently were Jews in name but not in heart (Rom 2:28-29).
The word "reprobate" , in the KJV, is also translated "castaway" (1 Cor 9:27) and "rejected" (Heb 6:8) which seems to coorespond nicely to the Jews being broken off the olive tree, a figure of Zion and the covenant of grace, and "cast away" (Rom 11:1) into unbelief (Rom 11:32), a figure of the works of the Sinai covenant (Jer 11:8).