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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  9/22/2014
WEDNESDAY, NOV 2, 2011  |  35 comments
California Church Preaches Gospel at the Bar … Beer Replaces Coffee

Churches, like businesses, are always trying to attract new faces. Some use tactics like providing coffee and sweets, or they boast a variety of different ministries for all age groups. Others have worship bands of rock star proportions and lots of digital technology to keep parishioners entertained. But a new church in San Jose, Calif., has a very different approach – it provides beer for attendees – after the service, of course.

After the service, people stick around and have a drink at the bar. Jenkins said this is where the real ministry takes place. People want to talk about their faith and their doubts. He likens it to his experiences with local pubs back in England and says he wants to create an atmosphere like it in San Jose. The local pub is “the hub of the community, where people feel comfortable.”

Jenkins was ordained in the Baptist Church in England, and then later, when he moved to ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 35 user comment(s)
News Item11/4/11 2:20 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Publican wrote:
Deuteronomy 14; 24-26. Drunkenness is a sin, drinking is not.
The above is correct, while I still think Prohibition was/is a good idea, there is nothing Biblical about it.

Galatians 5
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.---NASB

Character Produced by the Spirit

There is nothing in the Bible against mildly alcoholic drinks.[QUOTE]John, U.K., agreed, a Church service is not for even having new comers ears tickled.

35

News Item11/4/11 8:28 AM
Rufus | Fort Worth, TX  Protected NameFind all comments by Rufus
publican wrote:
To the pure, all things are pure. And don't forget wisdom. All of the references are to the allure, entrapment, and excessive use of alcohol. We are all responsible to our God and neighbor, by seeking out those ways that will offend either, and avoiding them, by denying ourselves if necessary.
But the warnings against drunkenness, I believe, would not constitute it a sin, to have a glass of wine.
It is not a sin to have a glass of wine, just make sure it's not the wine of alcohol. The wine that is found in the cluster...what a blessing.

"Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all." - Isaiah 65:8

34

News Item11/3/11 6:06 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
After the service, people stick around and have a drink at the bar. Jenkins said this is where the real ministry takes place. People want to talk about their faith and their doubts. He likens it to his experiences with local pubs back in England and says he wants to create an atmosphere like it in San Jose. The local pub is “the hub of the community, where people feel comfortable.”

"Create an atmosphere?!?!"

"Where people feel comfortable?!?!"

I've a feeling this is a typical modernist baptist who doesn't believe in making people feel "uncomfortable" while present with the church, and through the preaching of the gospel, but rather they felt at home, and wanted. Big mistake! The Holy Ghost desires to "convict of sin, and righteousness, and judgment to come". And it will bode well for any sinner, if they feel out of place amongst God's people, because they are sinners hellbound and deservedly so. The church has an alternative to offer them, on terms of repentance and believing in Jesus Christ, and that is a holy life to take the place of a sinful life, and that, by the grace of God.

To seek the Lord and his salvation requires turning one's back to the old life, and looking to heaven's ways, the ways of godliness.

33

News Item11/3/11 4:14 PM
publican | Northern Hemisphere  Find all comments by publican
To the pure, all things are pure. And don't forget wisdom. All of the references are to the allure, entrapment, and excessive use of alcohol. We are all responsible to our God and neighbor, by seeking out those ways that will offend either, and avoiding them, by denying ourselves if necessary.
But the warnings against drunkenness, I believe, would not constitute it a sin, to have a glass of wine.
32

News Item11/3/11 4:09 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Rufus wrote:
Grace and peace to ya John.
Grace and peace, bro.

And context:

Proverbs 31:1-7 Geneva
1 The words of king Lemuel: The prophecie which his mother taught him.
2 What my sonne! and what ye sonne of my wombe! and what, O sonne of my desires!
3 Giue not thy strength vnto women, nor thy wayes, which is to destroy Kings.
4 It is not for Kings, O Lemuel, it is not for Kings to drink wine nor for princes strog drinke,
5 Lest he drinke and forget the decree, and change the iudgement of all the children of affliction.
6 Giue ye strong drinke vnto him that is readie to perish, and wine vnto them that haue griefe of heart.
7 Let him drinke, that he may forget his pouertie, and remember his miserie no more.

Ah yes, there is a use for strong drink according to the Lord's word.

31

News Item11/3/11 3:25 PM
Rufus | Fort Worth, TX  Protected NameFind all comments by Rufus
Publican wrote:
Deuteronomy 14; 24-26. Drunkenness is a sin, drinking is not.
Do you believe the wine and strong drink of Deut 14:26 is the same wine and strong drink as Proverbs 20:1?

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. " - Proverbs 20:1

30

News Item11/3/11 2:46 PM
Publican | Northern Hemisphere  Find all comments by Publican
Deuteronomy 14; 24-26. Drunkenness is a sin, drinking is not.
29

News Item11/3/11 2:39 PM
Rufus | Fort Worth, TX  Protected NameFind all comments by Rufus
John UK wrote:
1. What makes me glad Rufus is that you drink juice rather than a wee dram. But carrot juice is even better.
2. I can't give my neighbour or anyone else any wine, because I don't have any, and have not bought anything alcoholic since 1979. Kings should not be drunk with wine, but filled with the Spirit....much better!
3. "By the power of Jesus Christ" is right, but legalists expect you to do things in your own strength. Check out John Rice and you will see that this is his take on freeing from addictions. His teaching dismays believers, because it does not work spiritually but is the same as how some wordlings escape their problem.
2. You have avoided answering the question yet again. It doesn't say it is not for Kings to be drunk with wine. It says it is not for kings to drink wine.

"It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:" - Proverbs 31:4

Grace and peace to ya John.

28

News Item11/3/11 1:43 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Rufus wrote:
1. No, but something that'll give one a nice buzz...that'll make their heart glad eh? Grape juice makes me glad, I'm sorry it doesn't in others.

2. What wine do you not give to your neighbour? What wine is not good for a king to drink?

3. I don't know John R. Rice that well but I find myself gravitating towards those that are called "fundie, legalists", I suspect I meet your criteria for such labels. What is man-centered is men feeding their flesh. By the power of Jesus Christ folks can deny their flesh and free themselves from the sin of drinking alcohol.

1. What makes me glad Rufus is that you drink juice rather than a wee dram. But carrot juice is even better.

2. I can't give my neighbour or anyone else any wine, because I don't have any, and have not bought anything alcoholic since 1979. Kings should not be drunk with wine, but filled with the Spirit....much better!

3. "By the power of Jesus Christ" is right, but legalists expect you to do things in your own strength. Check out John Rice and you will see that this is his take on freeing from addictions. His teaching dismays believers, because it does not work spiritually but is the same as how some wordlings escape their problem.

27

News Item11/3/11 12:42 PM
Rufus | Fort Worth, TX  Protected NameFind all comments by Rufus
John UK wrote:
Ah Rufus, we disagree then.
1. I hardly think that blackberry juice would "gladden" the heart of men.
2. The verses I posted do not refer to a devout Jew nor to a Christian man, but to a habitual drunkard. It is very kind of our Lord to illustrate the effects of becoming addicted to "much wine", where a daily intake becomes a necessary evil to avoid the DT's. It is the same then as now.
3. I confess I have little respect for the teaching of John Rice, fundie legalist, on this subject and its remedy. It is all too man-centred. The sanctified sinner needs more than his own will-power.
1. No, but something that'll give one a nice buzz...that'll make their heart glad eh? Grape juice makes me glad, I'm sorry it doesn't in others.
2. What wine do you not give to your neighbour? What wine is not good for a king to drink?
3. I don't know John R. Rice that well but I find myself gravitating towards those that are called "fundie, legalists", I suspect I meet your criteria for such labels. What is man-centered is men feeding their flesh. By the power of Jesus Christ folks can deny their flesh and free themselves from the sin of drinking alcohol.
26

News Item11/3/11 12:33 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Rufus wrote:
1. To Quote Webster's, it is "The juice of certain fruits."

2. True it is not a moderate drinker. However, the instruction to the drinker is not to drink moderately, the instruction is not to look at it ie. don't drink it at all. Likewise, the instruction relative to the neighbour is not woe unto them that giveth his neighbour much to drink. Likewise it is not a lot of drink that is the venom of asps it is the drink itself that is the venom of asps. Further, the Bible says it is not for kings to drink wine. It does not say it is not for kings to drink wine immoderately.

Ah Rufus, we disagree then.

1. I hardly think that blackberry juice would "gladden" the heart of men.

2. The verses I posted do not refer to a devout Jew nor to a Christian man, but to a habitual drunkard. It is very kind of our Lord to illustrate the effects of becoming addicted to "much wine", where a daily intake becomes a necessary evil to avoid the DT's. It is the same then as now.

3. I confess I have little respect for the teaching of John Rice, fundie legalist, on this subject and its remedy. It is all too man-centred. The sanctified sinner needs more than his own will-power.

25

News Item11/3/11 12:06 PM
Rufus | Fort Worth, TX  Protected NameFind all comments by Rufus
John UK wrote:
...
This is not a moderate drinker.
1. To Quote Webster's, it is "The juice of certain fruits."

2. True it is not a moderate drinker. However, the instruction to the drinker is not to drink moderately, the instruction is not to look at it ie. don't drink it at all. Likewise, the instruction relative to the neighbour is not woe unto them that giveth his neighbour much to drink. Likewise it is not a lot of drink that is the venom of asps it is the drink itself that is the venom of asps. Further, the Bible says it is not for kings to drink wine. It does not say it is not for kings to drink wine immoderately.

24

News Item11/3/11 11:10 AM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Rufus wrote:
There is a wine that maketh the heart glad. There is a wine that one is to drink for their infirmities. This wine is good for you...

If you do not believe the cursed wine is alcohol, what wine do you not look at? What wine do you not give to your neighbour? What wine is the venom of asps?

1. And what wine is that, pray?

2. Context brother, context:

Proverbs 23:29-35 Geneva
29 To whome is woe? to whome is sorowe? to whom is strife? to whom is murmuring? to whom are woundes without cause? and to whome is the rednesse of the eyes?
30 Euen to them that tarie long at the wine, to them that goe, and seeke mixt wine.
31 Looke not thou vpon the wine, when it is red, and when it sheweth his colour in the cup, or goeth downe pleasantly.
32 In the ende thereof it will bite like a serpent, and hurt like a cockatrise.
33 Thine eyes shall looke vpon strange women, and thine heart shall speake lewde things.
34 And thou shalt bee as one that sleepeth in the middes of the sea, and as hee that sleepeth in the toppe of the maste.
35 They haue stricken mee, shalt thou say, but I was not sicke: they haue beaten mee, but I knew not, when I awoke: therefore will I seeke it yet still.

This is not a moderate drinker.

23

News Item11/3/11 10:57 AM
Rufus | Fort Worth, TX  Protected NameFind all comments by Rufus
John UK wrote:
...
How do you see this verse?
There is a wine that maketh the heart glad. There is a wine that one is to drink for their infirmities. This wine is good for you, it is not the venom of asps, nor the poison of dragons. You can give it to your neighbour, you can look at it and you can consume it. It is a type of the blood of Jesus Christ, pure and without curses. It is a blessing.

If you do not believe the cursed wine is alcohol, what wine do you not look at? What wine do you not give to your neighbour? What wine is the venom of asps?

22

News Item11/3/11 10:48 AM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Rufus my bro

I think this debate has done the rounds more than once, but here goes:

And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oyle to make the face to shine, and bread that strengtheneth mans heart.
Psalms 104:15 Geneva

Matthew Henry comments (sensibly):

"Here is wine, that makes glad the heart, refreshes the spirits, and exhilarates them, when it is soberly and moderately used, that we may not only go through our business, but go through it cheerfully. It is a pity that that should be abused to overcharge the heart, and unfit men for their duty, which was given to revive their heart and quicken them in their duty."

Obviously MH regards the "wine" mentioned in this psalm as capable of intoxicating the drinker if he does not drink in moderation.

How do you see this verse?

21

News Item11/3/11 9:50 AM
Rufus | Fort Worth, TX  Protected NameFind all comments by Rufus
John UK wrote:
1. ...
2. And where do you find such? Not in the butcher's shop.
3. And where do you get your raw cow milk? ...
4. ...
5. You don't?!
6. Did not the kings of Judah consume any alcohol? ...
7. God does NOT command against it. ...
8. I think it is sensible not to drink any alcohol. ...
2. Though the federal and state gov'ts in the states do what they can to villify and come against folks who grow natural food, there are still a number of establishments in TX that offer grass fed beef. This may not be the case in Wales?
3. Same as 2. There are a number of farms around here that feed their animals grass and do not fill them up with antibiotics, hormones etc.
5. No. I observe the Lord's Day, I am a Christian not a Jew. You do?
6. Because a king did or did not does not make it right or wrong. Noah drank it and it caused him problems. Lot drank it and it caused him problems.
7. He clearly does. He says don't look at it, don't give it to your neighbour. My question remains relative to those commands. If it is not alcohol what wine do you not look at? What wine do you not give to your neighbour? What wine is the venom of asps?
8. Agree and I would add that God's commands are sensibl
20

News Item11/3/11 9:15 AM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Rufus wrote:
Why would one eat a man adulterated poison, such as margarine, which poisons the body and causes heart attacks...?

I know of no diseases caused by the consumption of grass fed, clean animals.

Raw cow milk is good, raw goat milk is better.

My church does not consume 11% communion wine...

I do not observe the sabbath...

I hate evil, I find the consumption of alcohol to be a horrific evil...

The consumption of alcohol is sin because God commands against it...

1. Indeed.

2. And where do you find such? Not in the butcher's shop.

3. And where do you get your raw cow milk?

4. There are many churches which use 11% alcohol communion wine. The Jews did and so do Christian churches.

5. You don't?!

6. Did not the kings of Judah consume any alcohol?

7. God does NOT command against it.

8. I think it is sensible not to drink any alcohol. I also think it sensible not to drink tea or coffee, seeing as there is nothing within these that the body requires. I also think it sensible not to eat meat, drink cow milk, eat refined sugar, refined flour, limit salt intake, drink pure water, eat no cakes or cookies, tinned foods, and 1001 other.

19

News Item11/3/11 8:19 AM
Rufus | Fort Worth, TX  Protected NameFind all comments by Rufus
John UK wrote:
Why would one eat a man adulterated poison, such as margarine, which poisons the body and causes heart attacks, when one can eat the blessing of butter?

I know of no diseases caused by the consumption of grass fed, clean animals.

Raw cow milk is good, raw goat milk is better.

My church does not consume 11% communion wine, nor am I familiar with what that is. We observe the Lord's supper with organic grape juice and not the cruel venom of asps.

I do not observe the sabbath nor its ceremonial customs, I am a Christian. I believe I have picked up a stick on Saturday before, in fact, I believe I have picked up logs.

I hate evil, I find the consumption of alcohol to be a horrific evil and I hate it. Likewise, I hate the doctrine that promotes drinking a little bit of poison. No alcoholics started out that way, they all started as "moderate" drinkers.

The consumption of alcohol is sin because God commands against it. There is a wine we are not to look at, a wine that we are not to give to our neighbour, a wine that is the poison of dragons, I believe this one to be alcohol and thus consuming or giving it to others to cause them to sin is sin. If you do not believe this wine to be alcohol, what do you believe it is?

18

News Item11/3/11 6:56 AM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Rufus, you have a strange definition of what "sin" is.

According to your definition, it would be a sin to make use of hydrogenated fats, commonly known as easy-spread margarine. It would be a sin to eat meat, which is known to cause all kinds of illnesses. It would be a sin to drink cow-milk, which is outside the natural order of things. It would be a sin to take communion at your church which uses 11% communion wine. It would be a sin to pick up a stick on the Sabbath. It would be a sin to hate evil. And so on.

There is a difference between things being bad for you, and things being a sin, surely?

My point was that drinking half a pint of beer is NOT a sin, whereas drinking three or four pints IS a sin, because the Bible shows clearly that drunkenness is strongly condemned. But why would it isolate drunkenness if even a small amount was wrong? The simple answer is that God never condemned the small amount; indeed, he commended the small amount. And that is one biblical argument you will never be able to gainsay.

17

News Item11/2/11 11:25 PM
Wadworth  Find all comments by Wadworth
Billy Sunday, Lester Roloff, Hugh Pyle, and John R Rice represent the consensus of two millenia of worldwide Christian history? You need to get out more.

Or you could stay in and actually read some church history...

16
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