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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  9/16/2014
MONDAY, OCT 3, 2011  |  27 comments
Archbishop Warns Obama: You’ll Cause 'Conflict Between Church and State of Enormous Proportions’
Archbishop Timothy Dolan of New York, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB), has written a letter to President Barack Obama warning him that his administration will “precipitate a national conflict between church and state of enormous proportions” if it does not “end its campaign against DOMA, the institution of marriage it protects, and religious freedom.”

The letter follows up on two previous letters that Cardinal Francis George of Chicago, the former president of the USCCB, and Archbishop Dolan sent to Obama privately on the matter. Cardinal George sent his private letter in 2010, according to the USCCB, and Archbishop Dolan sent his earlier this year. ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 27 user comment(s)
News Item10/5/11 12:17 PM
Presby  Find all comments by Presby
"It will be argued below that it was the Calvinists who first switched the emphasis of political thought from the prince to the saint (or band of saints) and then constructed a theoretical justification for independent political action." Michael Walzer
27

News Item10/5/11 11:45 AM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Presby, whether you mean Athenian-type democracy or republicanism, none of your material backs up your assertion that "Democracy was invented by Calvinist Presbyterians," which is historically false. I repeat & agree, that representative gov't was *favored* by Reformation Calvinists, in opposition to Divine Right particularly, but never "invented."

Getting history right is a duty implied by the 9th Commandment. The OT exemplifies this well: just the facts, pleasant or not.

26

News Item10/5/11 11:06 AM
Presby  Find all comments by Presby
Neil wrote:
History sure gets a strange spin
""Democracy" is not a term in favor with Calvin. He does not advocate democracy in and of itself: he fears its deterioration into anarchy. Nevertheless, his notion of "aristocracy tempered by democracy" approaches our conception of representative democracy. It becomes unmistakably clear in his later writings that the ideal basis of government is election by the citizens." John T McNeill

"Beyond the shadow of a doubt, the elders really represent the Church, which delegates to them its sovereignty. The theory of the representative system is really a Calvinist theory." Emile Doumergue

"Even if one gives to the role of the community in the Calvinist Church its largest sense, and even if one neglects the important restrictions on it stipulated by Calvin, one still searches in vain for any new principles this conception would bring to republican Geneva." Georges De Lagarde

"Calvinist political thought helped more than any other tendency of the time to prevent a full victory of absolutism, and to prepare the way for constitutional and even republican ideas." Hans Baron

Sources of Democracy

25

News Item10/5/11 5:45 AM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
I don't know how long William Wilberforce's hair was, but he certainly changed things from the inside, didn't he?
What's a CND placard?
He sure did, Mike. And he didn't need to rally or show a united front with Catholics to accomplish it. Nor did he go into it without a call from God. Nor did he accept the advice of friends. He accepted God's leading and did great things in his name. But it is not "indifference" for folks not called to that to get on with doing what God has called them personally to do.

Ah, you'll remember those CND days. I guess you had them in America as well. The circular sign with a broken cross held aloft by those well-meaning nutters who were not indifferent to government nutters, forming and promoting the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, trying to save the world from being blasted to bits by devilish explosives made by devilish people in devilish governments, thinking themselves to do God's will but having no biblical precedent. But then, you'd say, there is no NT law stating, "Thou shalt not form a nuclear weapon and use it to kill millions and sink whole countries."

24

News Item10/4/11 10:52 PM
FOR | Tennessee  Find all comments by FOR
Rather than trying to decide "who" started "what" first. Why don't we get back to the issue at hand and let the voters decide? The last thing Obama is worried about is the "church". The church is so weak right now that there are only a few lone voices that speak out against this perversion. Why not have large rallies to show support for DOMA?
23

News Item10/4/11 7:40 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
John UK wrote:
Mike, are you saying that we grow our hair long, take up our CND placards, sing protest songs about the evil guv right outside the white house? Or that Christians should stand for office and try to change things from the inside? Or have another civil war? Or write propaganda messages and ensure they get into magazines, newspapers etc.?
Somehow to me that don't sound like new testament life at all.
Or are you thinking of something different?
I don't know how long William Wilberforce's hair was, but he certainly changed things from the inside, didn't he?

What's a CND placard?

22

News Item10/4/11 5:19 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Presby wrote:
Democracy was invented by Calvinist Presbyterians prior to that the nations were led by monarchies.
History sure gets a strange spin around here - I thought ancient Greeks "invented" democracy, not Presbys. Rome started out as a republic, hostile to monarchs. Venice was a republic since the 9th century. Iceland's Althing, the world's oldest parliament, has been around since the 10th century.

So there were plenty of examples of representative gov't prior to Reformation Switzerland & Holland. It may have been *encouraged* by Calvinism, as even secular historians affirm, but never invented.

21

News Item10/4/11 5:00 PM
Tulip  Find all comments by Tulip
Psalm 90: 1Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. 3Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. 4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
5Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up. 6In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth. 7For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled. 8Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance. 9For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told. 10The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. 11Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath.
12So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom. 13Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants...to v.17
20

News Item10/4/11 4:33 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
PNJG wrote:
...how will you (and your children) seek refuge from this coming oppression?
Ah Pauline, you image a refuge comes from the human.

I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Psalms 91:2 KJV

But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.
Psalms 94:22 KJV

I looked on my right hand, and beheld, but there was no man that would know me: refuge failed me; no man cared for my soul. I cried unto thee, O LORD: I said, Thou art my refuge and my portion in the land of the living.
Psalms 142:4-5 KJV

That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 6:18-20 KJV

19

News Item10/4/11 4:32 PM
Tulip  Find all comments by Tulip
Presby wrote:
Democracy was invented by Calvinist Presbyterians prior to that the nations were led by monarchies.
Now what Reformed Presbyterians would that be? seeing that it contradicts both the Scripture and their historic testimony, recorded by the RP Scotland in The Act Declaration and Testimony as well as the facts of history? Which often are grossly perverted on-line? The House of Commons and House of Lord's preceded the SLC in England. I believe this form of government of which you speak has a longer history then what you assert.

The Pilgrim forefathers for example left for Leiden in God's secret Providence but they were early separatists and though not as culpable as the English separatists later in history, nevertheless they were still in error in some things. I can assure you, however, they were however never in league with the Papacy.

18

News Item10/4/11 3:08 PM
PNJG  Find all comments by PNJG
Our Pilgrim forefathers found significant religious oppression in the U.K. and Leiden (The Netherlands) and set-sail for freedom and protection of their children in the New World. When global same-sex "marriage" is complete, how will you (and your children) seek refuge from this coming oppression?

If we don't jointly act now we seal our own destiny.

"We'll either hang together or we'll hang separately."
-Benjamin Franklin

17

News Item10/4/11 3:05 PM
Presby  Find all comments by Presby
Mike wrote:
Is there biblical direction, command, etc. to avoid being involved in governing? Surely there must be an exclusionary verse somewhere. Or do we merely make this stuff up to excuse indifference?
But Mike; Democracy was invented by Calvinist Presbyterians prior to that the nations were led by monarchies.
So the modern method of government by elected officials, was founded by the presbyterian method of church government laid down by Paul.

1Tim 5:17 Let the elders (PRESBUTEROS)that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders (PRESBUTEROS) in every city, as I had appointed thee"

BTW You Baptists have followed our lead on this haven't you?

16

News Item10/4/11 3:04 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
Is there biblical direction, command, etc. to avoid being involved in governing? Surely there must be an exclusionary verse somewhere. Or do we merely make this stuff up to excuse indifference?
Mike, are you saying that we grow our hair long, take up our CND placards, sing protest songs about the evil guv right outside the white house? Or that Christians should stand for office and try to change things from the inside? Or have another civil war? Or write propaganda messages and ensure they get into magazines, newspapers etc.?

Somehow to me that don't sound like new testament life at all.

Or are you thinking of something different?

15

News Item10/4/11 2:36 PM
Tulip  Find all comments by Tulip
Jim Lincoln wrote:
of course there is no NT reference for Christians
US Constitution.- "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution.
Divine Law
OT Scripture- Hos.8:4 4They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.
Lev. 25:10
NT Scripture-
1 Cor.10:31
Col. 3:17 "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."
compliments of the Reformed Presbytery March 1843
14

News Item10/4/11 2:33 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Is there biblical direction, command, etc. to avoid being involved in governing? Surely there must be an exclusionary verse somewhere. Or do we merely make this stuff up to excuse indifference?
13

News Item10/4/11 2:28 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
PNJG wrote:
Perhaps the biblical precedents are the relatively tiny twin towns of Sodom and Gomorrah.
I asked for a NT biblical precedent for Christians getting involved with politics.

I guess you can't find one. Not one.

I guess it's time for you to come out of the unbiblical church and begin reading the Bible so that you will know what is biblical even if you never get saved. However, I sure hope you get saved, lest you perish in your sins.

12

News Item10/4/11 2:10 PM
Chris M  Find all comments by Chris M
PNJG wrote:
Who is the Protestant leader publicly opposing the Obama Administration stand-down from supporting DOMA & DADT?
The Protestant "Leader" which publically opposes the sodomite and their sycophantic Liberal followers Is HOLY SCRIPTURE.

Sola Scriptura!!

The cry of the true Christians.

Just as Protestants have protested and fought against all who would turn against God, Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Just as Protestants raised up and fought against the idolatrous blasphemous papal antichrist and his Roman catholic followers, during the Reformation which God brought to His true followers.

Today the real Church, Reformed and Protestant stands against the same old enemy of Satan, Rome, Vatican, sodomite, idolater and heretic.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

11

News Item10/4/11 2:09 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
John UK wrote:
Pauline, can you give a biblical precedent for getting involved with politics in the NT? Or is your use of the word "biblical" a mere subterfuge.
Ah, John UK, it is always good when can agree, of course there is no NT reference for Christians being involved in government, except of course, what is the proper Response to Human Government.
10

News Item10/4/11 1:31 PM
PNJG  Find all comments by PNJG
Perhaps the biblical precedents are the relatively tiny twin towns of Sodom and Gomorrah.

What happens when Sodom and Gomorrah's homosexuality goes not just national but global (which it has), and further, the right to "same-sex" marriage is recognized in every nation and even sanctioned by the UN? This would make any Bible precedents pale in comparison.

Is it wise for a Christian to ignore this carnage and hope it doesn't impact his denomination (it's destroyed several already), his congregation and his family?

9

News Item10/4/11 1:17 PM
John UK | Wales  Find all comments by John UK
PNJG wrote:
Why couldn't Christians on both sides of the aisle do likewise to protect the biblical family?
Pauline, can you give a biblical precedent for getting involved with politics in the NT? Or is your use of the word "biblical" a mere subterfuge.
8
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