John Piper Laments Normalization of Homosexuality as 'the New Calamity'
Amid ongoing "gay pride" celebrations and the continual push for gay marriage across the states, influential evangelical John Piper wants to put it all in perspective for the church.
"My sense is that we do not realize what a calamity is happening around us," Piper, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, wrote in a commentary on Thursday. "Christians, more clearly than others, can see the tidal wave of pain that is on the way. Sin carries in it its own misery."
It's been nearly a week now since marriage for gay and lesbian couples was legalized in New York and since hundreds of thousands of Americans celebrated homosexuality with gay pride parades, not only in New York but also in Piper's home state of Minnesota....
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do MORTIFY the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom 8.13.
MORTIFY therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Col.3.
In both verses the word "mortify" means put to death. Have you put your sins [deeds of the body. earthly members] to death yet?
postwatcher wrote: 1) Personal prayer should include family circumstances and struggles. Specific areas of "problem" as we identify them should be taken before the Lord. Thus when a specific point is addressed then time spent on it may be longer than general daily requests. God does respond to prayer and sins brought before Him in repentance will receive a "foreknown response" the shield of faith and the blessing of God upon His servant. As John Owen states, "Both meditation and prayer particularly oppose indwelling sin." 2) Note Luke 11:13 "...to them that ask Him." - Thus pray (ask) 'FOR' the Holy Spirit. 3) General requests and prayer should include family and yourself in the battle, local eg church and neighbours. But we should also address the state of the church (our brothers and sisters in faith) and the nation which as you know needs all the help it can get just now. This clearly is a frontline in the battle especially our "poor" old politicians in their obvious ignorance. So "time" as such will relate to the content of your prayers as personal circumstances may dictate. I encourage all Christians to be daily prayer warriors and fight the good fight by reaching out to God, in Christ, as much as possible.
John UK wrote: Does praying for a long time have a better effect? Thank you.
BTW John; The John Owen quote I provided below comes from Owen's book, "Triumph over Temptaion." It is a good little read and deals with indwelling sin, temptation and mortification of sin. The version done by Victor Classics. (Cook communications Ministries) is not to heavy, I recommend it to you.
Triumph Over Temptation by John Owen Victor Books (David C. Cook) ISBN: 0781441722 From the Classics Collection
1) Personal prayer should include family circumstances and struggles. Specific areas of "problem" as we identify them should be taken before the Lord. Thus when a specific point is addressed then time spent on it may be longer than general daily requests. God does respond to prayer and sins brought before Him in repentance will receive a "foreknown response" the shield of faith and the blessing of God upon His servant. As John Owen states, "Both meditation and prayer particularly oppose indwelling sin."
2) Note Luke 11:13 "...to them that ask Him." - Thus pray (ask) 'FOR' the Holy Spirit.
3) General requests and prayer should include family and yourself in the battle, local eg church and neighbours. But we should also address the state of the church (our brothers and sisters in faith) and the nation which as you know needs all the help it can get just now. This clearly is a frontline in the battle especially our "poor" old politicians in their obvious ignorance.
So "time" as such will relate to the content of your prayers as personal circumstances may dictate. I encourage all Christians to be daily prayer warriors and fight the good fight by reaching out to God, in Christ, as much as possible.
Sorry about that John Yurich, That was my quote, I am not use to commenting on this web site and did not backspace all of what you had written and so the quote was attributed to you when I hit reply to comment, It was an honest mistake. I apologize. But I still hold to what I said, the political spectrum today is a ruse and is controlled by big money special interests. There are very few men today in Washington with any integrity who hold to any principles, one who does is retiring from the congress and is way to honest to be elected president, thats Ron Paul from Texas. Even his own party and their lackeys at Fox News really do not like Paul and his Ideas, there to freedom based and the establishment can't stand that. I don't know if he is correct about everything but I sure like this mans character, at least what I have seen of it. I still find it disgusting that the conservatives in the church who say how important truth is don't hold to that when it comes to the republican party,they laud them but yet when the GOP was in control they did nothing about major social issues of our time other than just dangle a carrot in front of evangelicals where abortion or gay rights are concerned and the dems pretty much embrace those things.Like I said, its all a ruse.
John Yurich USA wrote: I really believe it is good and well to just tell the truth about politicos no matter what their affilation. It seems to me that in the church at least the one I have been to, I have been taught that truth is paramount and yet the hateful bias I encountered was unbelievable. It is not a matter of differing on policy but to listen to people speak of Obama or Hillary Clinton and call them the anti-christ is just plain ugly. And then to question the belifes of Bush, well if you did that the whole tone changed, W. could do no wrong, frankly I found it sickening. Another thing you were not allowed to do was question the behavior of the nation Israel and the way it treats the Palestinians, if you did you can bet you were looked at with suspicion. It seems to me that there is plenty of insanity to go around in both major parties. It reminds me of pro wrestling, you know put on a good show and then go out and have dinner and drinks and cut deals. What a con.
I just caught your post before turning in, and I thank you for it. It is so rare within christendom to converse with someone who tells it like it is.
And I do believe I can go along with what you say thus far. Scripture does seem to indicate that our sanctification is by grace, but that we can "interfere" with God's work in us through unwise involvements or putting ourself in temptation's way. For example, I do not possess a TV set because I reckon it has a bad effect on me. However, the little flat I rent comes with a big TV free of charge, and I am very often tempted to relax and watch it. And I notice my spiritual life deteriorates. The TV suddenly expired three days ago, and I am not displeased.
To continue my own thoughts about this, I have the following verses in mind, with regard to a beautiful life, flowing from the Holy Spirit in us:
Galatians 5:22-23 KJV 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
p.s. Regarding weak faith, you are not alone biblically: "Lord I believe, help thou mine unbelief."
Your son is fortunate to have a father who loves him so much, and I will add my prayers to yours on his behalf. Sure I will.
highflyer wrote: They despise democratsand hated Clinton and they hate Obama even worse, and yet Bush could do no wrong in their eyes and anything anyone would say critical of Bush was quickly shunned.I do not care for the know it alls who have hatful attitudes and yet are full of advice I doubt folks like that will ever admit that they struggle with sin but I know they do.Thanks again
When I was a Democrat I despised Republicans and Bush and Reagan. Now that I am a Republican I despise Democrats and I think Bush and Reagan were great presidents. I also believe that Republican politicians can do no wrong. The reason that I switched from being a Democrat to a Republican is because I am a Conservative and I could not stand any longer the liberal insanity in the Democrat party.
John,I believe that a good and holy life is a difficult thing to consistently live.I do understand the grace of God through Jesus Christ and His atonement but I also know that you can not pray sin away, that is foolish. That doesn't mean one shouldn't pray, it just means there is no magic to make sin vanish. I believe that scripture commands us to discipline ourselves unto godliness, not an easy task and yet the Lords grace is behind that even though it remains unseen and unfelt, it must be believed.Faith has never come easy for me and yet I do believe. I appreciate your kind words and would appreciate your prayers for my son, his name is Joshua and I love him dearly. I have not had to great of an experience with Christian people, particularly leaders.The ones I have been around seem to lack humility even though they preach to others about it, they seem to gravitate toward extremes especially in the political realm,They despise democratsand hated Clinton and they hate Obama even worse, and yet Bush could do no wrong in their eyes and anything anyone would say critical of Bush was quickly shunned.I do not care for the know it alls who have hatful attitudes and yet are full of advice I doubt folks like that will ever admit that they struggle with sin but I know they do.Thanks again
Perhaps the reason you came on here was sympathy? If so and I pointed to Scripture instead then choose.
In your situation you have to be the tough guy, being a persecuted Christian is a hard life. The strength which the Christian needs is only found in God. Your battle is against the most powerful and dangerous enemy in existence. Satan and sin. Sympathy is no use to anyone and certainly does not help against this enemy. Do not concentrate upon the sin. Concentrate upon the Word of God. Concentrate upon the Law of God being - "of God" Concentrate upon the truth and teaching of Scripture and the fact that the Word is powerful and persuasive. Heb 4:12 Finally trust in God over this issue. This is a test of faith! Pray that the Holy Spirit shall fill you and your family. Pray that the shield of faith shall protect you from Satan and his dark forces. Remember what you are praying for here is the salvation of a sinner. How do YOU save sinners? Pray and fast about it. Enlist the help of Christians whom you know (your church). This may be difficult for you to publicise - then go to your preacher, elders in private. Meditate on Scripture to gain the comfort of God upon it. Look at sin in Scripture for example 2Cor 5:18-21.
You do nothing but prove my point and if it is vile and sinful to tell you the truth then so be it.This has nothing to do with a disagreement but with attitude, and yours is just like what I described, A proud know it all who also distorts what people mean, look at my post to John from Wales at 1:04 pm and then tell me I believe in works based religion. I know what God has said about homosexuality but you should remember that we all deserve death, your assumptions are as asinine as your distortions of what someone says and means. I really do not believe you when you say your sorry about anything.You are the stereotypical sarcastic conservative Christian that inhabits the churches today in droves and it is evident you have an absence of love other than for yourself and your own version of what it means to be righteous. You have to have someone to hate which only causes separation. I should have know it was a mistake to ever post anything like this because guys like you are every where. Tell you what, why dont you keep praying and meditating long and hard, I can see whats its done for you.If you want to reply to this, fine, but this is the last time I will.
postwatcher wrote: The difficulty we seem to be experiencing with the current discussion is the serpents same old original temptation from Genesis 3. "Did God really say that." .............. The Christian solution to all sin is not to seek to become sinless, but to pray long and hard daily and meditate upon Scripture daily. We all have to do this regardless of what our sins are. Trust in God.
Thank you pw
1. I don't think there is any problem with folks here concerning that. The just judgments of God are clear and cannot be gainsaid. The Lord is against all sin, and will punish it in hell if it is not forgiven through the blood of Christ. As I said before, some sins are especially an abomination to God, and will therefore be punished by degree, that is, to a greater extent than others.
2. Yes, indeed, this is what I am thinking. I would appreciate if you could put some more meat on your comment and advice. I realise that this is fundamental, but I am interested to know more detail. For example, pray long and hard for what, exactly? For the Spirit's fulness, or just generally praying as the Spirit leads? Does praying for a long time have a better effect? Thank you.
John UK wrote: Here we have "walk in the Spirit" and being "led of the Spirit", rather than "do this, do that, do the other". As I see it, the former is normal, the latter is legalism. The former is the way of freedom, power and effectiveness; the latter tends to guilt, despair, impotence and despondency. Am I right? Or am I wrong?
The difficulty we seem to be experiencing with the current discussion is the serpents same old original temptation from Genesis 3. "Did God really say that." (Paraphrased)
God teaches that Homosexuality is judged ... "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Lev 20:13."
Jesus said "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matt 5:18."
The Christian solution to all sin is not to seek to become sinless, but to pray long and hard daily and meditate upon Scripture daily. We all have to do this regardless of what our sins are. Trust in God.
It seems to me that a holy life is a "fruit of the Spirit" life. So that if a person is born again, any victory over sinful tendencies is as a result of the Spirit's presence. Hence:
Galatians 5:13-18 KJV 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Here we have "walk in the Spirit" and being "led of the Spirit", rather than "do this, do that, do the other". As I see it, the former is normal, the latter is legalism. The former is the way of freedom, power and effectiveness; the latter tends to guilt, despair, impotence and despondency.
highflyer wrote: 1. you do this so you can be a condescending
2. anyone overcome their sin
3. you just want to beat them with bible verses and really do not care if someone might perish
1. Oh dear all those vile and "sinful" allegations and insults you have sent to me. Why? - Because I dared to disagree with your post. Perhaps you should check out your own sin and seek to solve that!!
2. But what about solution to sin? Try reading Romans 7:14ff. Who is it who will solve sin? God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. If they are not involved then you will go to hell. So your quote; "overcome their sin" (works based religion) is NON-Christian and UNBiblical. ONLY Christ can do that!!
3. Sorry about providing Bible verses - But I'm afraid that is what real Christians do.
As for being "hung up" on homosexuality??? - God calls this an abomination, Lev 18, Those responsible for it deserve death, Lev 20, and un-natural Romans 1. - With those kinds of judgments by GOD Himself I have no alternative but to agree with GOD. I assume you do not agree with God or the Bible since you reject Bible verses???
Eph 1:4,5 - The elect, that is the chosen of God will be saved - and sinless Jesus only will be "received" by God - on behalf of elect "SINNERS"
It is most wonderful to read a post written in honesty and reality. As you mentioned, far too much Christianity is Churchianity; and important, relevant issues are sidelined in favour of maintaining a good image, or simply to keep a status quo.
John Wesley's "class" meetings were designed to open men and women up to the reality of spiritual life. Each week, believers were to share with the gathered church how good or bad a week they had experienced. Of course, sins would come up and be repented of, and advice given, along with comfort and assurance of friendship. God's people are not immune, as you said, to the most grievous sins. And the church ought to be supportive of the little flock entrusted to their care, and begin to talk issues through, instead of playing at Christianity.
I have come to the conclusion in my own life, that my sanctification and victory over sin, is not something I should just sit back and wait to happen. And so I have many thoughts on the subject, which I am willing to talk about, and I would dearly appreciate it if you would also convey your own thoughts on this subject of living a good and holy life by God's grace.
Saw your post and understand it completly, I also understand what scripture says about homosexuality and understand that only God can change this, my son knows the bible much better than most kids his age at times he acts like he believes and at times he acts like he doesn't, quite confused eh? I do not enjoy the thought of my son perishing into eternal fire but hope one day God's mercy will be much more evident in his life. What about you, you have any sin in your life?are maybe your full of the Spirit all the time. I must be honest,Some of the Christian leaders I have met I do not like one bit, they are know it alls who believe if you don't think just like them you have a problem, mercy seems like it only belongs to them, they are proud and have their little inner circles and keep anyone who differs out. I do not believe Jesus is anything like this at all. Yes He will judge, but look at men in scripture who received mercy, men like Lot, Samson, David, Moses, Manaseh, Saul of Tarsas. If most of us would be honest with ourselfs and most are not, we all have sin problems and practical change doesn't happen to fast especially being men and especially where sex is concerned, look at Solomon, you think he might have had a problem with sex? Thanks for your concern. : )
highflyer to postwatcher wrote: .....you really have no desire to see anyone overcome their sin,you just want to beat them with bible verses and really do not care if someone might perish...
Did you ignore my recommendation because you didn't see it, or because you are not really interested in the answer? If you wish, I will post it again, as I am very concerned for you and your family. One thing you already know, or ought to, is that God changes his mind on nothing, and there are certain things he regards as abominations, above all other things.