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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  7/14/2014
TUESDAY, FEB 1, 2011  |  26 comments
Tim Keller: Spiritual and Secular Jobs are God's Work
Pastor Tim Keller challenged a crowd of New York City professionals Sunday to rethink how they view work and to debunk the notion that spiritual vocations matter more to God than secular work.

Keller, founding pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Manhattan, explained why all work matters to God and why God matters to work in a lecture held at the Hunter College auditorium for members of the church’s vocation groups. The lecture is the fourth entry in an eight-part lecture series organized by the church’s Center for Faith and Work, which represents professionals from at least 15 industry sectors, including the arts, business and healthcare.

In making his case that all Christians are ‚Äúpriests‚ÄĚ in their respective fields, Keller contrasted the approach to work by the medieval church and the radical reformation with that of the 16th century protestant reformer Martin Luther. ...


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www.christianpost.com

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· Page 1 ·  Found: 26 user comment(s)
News Item2/11/11 8:29 AM
Alanprotestant | Great Britain  Contact via emailFind all comments by Alanprotestant
Secular employment is as important as sacred, one goes together with the others, to earn a living is not wrong, but is one of the Proestant ethics of a fair days pay for a fair days work. Christianity should lead the way in morals and ethics. What would business be like if Godly morals and ethics were applied. Far better than at present. Could you imagine a moral and ethical bank, or leader of a country, or even a party. Protestantissues2.com
26

News Item2/4/11 5:54 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
I'm not answering that, since you're not answering mine.
25

News Item2/4/11 4:59 PM
Prentons  Find all comments by Prentons
Neil wrote:
Prentons, I'm still waiting for answers to my questions. I took pains to answer yours pertinently on 2/3, but you haven't reciprocated.
Heres a tough one for you Neil.
Was it Paul's tent-making or Paul's preaching, teaching and writing which God used him to achieve "spiritual" work on earth?

If, as you obviously believe his tent-making was the same value to God, can I just ask did God make a profit out of the tent's sold?

24

News Item2/4/11 4:00 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Prentons, I'm still waiting for answers to my questions. I took pains to answer yours pertinently on 2/3, but you haven't reciprocated.
23

News Item2/4/11 3:14 PM
Prentons  Find all comments by Prentons
Neil wrote:
you say regenerate people shouldn't do "world work,"
Where did I say this?

Original article quote I used...
"a biblical approach to work, in which there was no dividing Christian work between ‚Äúspiritual estate‚ÄĚ and the ‚Äútemporal estate.‚ÄĚ"

My reply.....
"I don't agree I think there is a distinction between the two aspects of a Christians life and work. Their work in the world to earn a crust is part of providence but not important to God. Whereas the Spiritual journey through life which the Christian takes, is specifically led by the Holy Spirit and is distinctly more important from God's perspective."

Then I sumarised God's attitude to world-work as Gen 3:17 - 19.
Which is the PUNISHMENT God dealt to mankind.

This PUNISHMENT is not as important to GOD as the spiritual estate wherein man serves God IN Christ.

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Now is that AS important to the Lord as farm work, or plumbing or.....??

Then their is Eph 4:11,12.
Then their is prayer.....etc.

22

News Item2/4/11 2:55 PM
BTW  Find all comments by BTW
Has anyone on SA noticed how the Christian Post forums have been hijacked by progressives,socialist and sodomites.
Really a sad thing to see Christian forums turned into something they were never meant to be.

Just sayin.

21

News Item2/3/11 5:22 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Oh yeah, you said "*if* you are a convinced Arminian, this may explain..." But you're not insinuating anything at all, right?

Where did you answer, Prentons? Yes or No: Was it OK for Paul to make tents & yet be an Apostle? Please don't repeat the "read my posts" line again; if you really answered my question, please tell me where or repeat it. I'm not going to fall for decoys.

And you ignore my remaining questions. I know Abel wasn't justified by his farm work or his sacrifice, but that's not my point. He tilled the cursed ground (or the equivalent for shepherding); you say regenerate people shouldn't do "world work," yet it was this very world-work that made Abel's, & all other OT saints', sacrifices *possible*. How do you resolve this according to your beliefs?

And there's the dilemma - *someone* has to till the cursed ground in a Christian village, or all starve.

20

News Item2/3/11 5:10 PM
Prentons  Find all comments by Prentons
Neil wrote:
You're STILL not answering my questions. Your doing this does not depend on my understanding of the article "intro" (whatever that is), so you have no excuse to stall.
Your charge of Arminianism is a strawman. I distinguish works of justification from works of vocation, the latter being the topic in dispute. And I deny that even "spiritual" works (the sort you deem superior) are necessarily indicative of regeneration, on the grounds of Matt. 7:22-23.
I have answered your questions.

The charge of Armininaism is not a strawman. Simply a question.

Matt 7:21-22 is about reprobates who go to church and do what reprobates always do. Their "claimed works" is part of the point; - They are church goers convinced of their "faith" but it is only intellectual assent, like our Liberal friends. The reason why their efforts were not "spiritual" is because the Holy Spirit was not in them. Thus this is not a good example of this particular articles polemics.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Even Abel was not saved by his farm work.

19

News Item2/3/11 4:22 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
You're STILL not answering my questions. Your doing this does not depend on my understanding of the article "intro" (whatever that is), so you have no excuse to stall.

Your charge of Arminianism is a strawman. I distinguish works of justification from works of vocation, the latter being the topic in dispute. And I deny that even "spiritual" works (the sort you deem superior) are necessarily indicative of regeneration, on the grounds of Matt. 7:22-23.

18

News Item2/3/11 3:55 PM
Prentons  Find all comments by Prentons
Neil wrote:
Did Paul contradict what you think he meant in Rom. 12:1 by making tents despite his Apostolic calling?
You are NOT reading my posts are you?

I reiterate from my post below.

"The discussion is about a difference between "spiritual estate" and "temporal estate" - See the article intro."

Article Intro.
"Pastor Tim Keller challenged a crowd of New York City professionals Sunday to rethink how they view work and to debunk the notion that spiritual vocations matter more to God than secular work."

I ask again do you believe in salvation by works?

And for You [[and others who clearly have not grasped the point]] - The reason I ask is because YOU appear to be elevating secular world work to "spiritual" levels. If you are a convinced Arminian then this may explain your direction.

I repeat
"Nowhere Neil have I sought to establish nor stated that work is not to be carried out on earth. Else what is providence for."

17

News Item2/3/11 2:40 PM
Tiny  Find all comments by Tiny
it's a miracle wrote:
THANK YOU LORD JESUS
That is an appalling comment that takes our Lord's name in vain and violates the third and second greatest commandments.

Neil is a faithful poster on these forums and normally distinguishes himself by great godliness of conversation - even under provocation.

I would like to see answers to Neil's very pertinent questions and even more an end to tangential waffle, strawman argumentation and the frequent, ridiculous and baseless accusations (e.g. of believing in salvation by works).

16

News Item2/3/11 1:47 PM
it's a miracle  Find all comments by it's a miracle
Neil wrote:
...Nothing further till I get answers.
THANK YOU LORD JESUS
15

News Item2/3/11 12:52 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
You've still ignored my questions & gone off on tangents, so I repeat:

Did Paul contradict what you think he meant in Rom. 12:1 by making tents despite his Apostolic calling?

How could faithful Abel have offered sacrifices w/o raising flocks (Gen. 4:4) on the cursed ground?

How would you solve the dilemma of a community of believers surviving w/o tilling the cursed ground?

Nothing further till I get answers.

14

News Item2/3/11 12:23 PM
Prentons  Find all comments by Prentons
Neil wrote:
a) Sure they do, but it still does not prove that work itself is spiritually defective. It's just difficult; that's all one can logically infer from the text. And again, was Abel's sacrifice possible if he was not supposed to do secular work like raising sheep?
b) But what part of the difference is relevant to your argument? You simply assume it is, w/o proof.
Neil
Should I assume from responses like these that you believe in salvation by works - or works as a contribution to?

Neil wrote:
#) Huh? He said nothing about neighborliness, but their attitude about Providence.
He did not have to specifically state the word but it is implied within John's teaching.

wrote:
You may not argue that secular work should cease, but by deprecating it as an option for "separated" Christians,
The discussion is about a difference between "spiritual estate" and "temporal estate" - See the article intro.
13

News Item2/3/11 11:52 AM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
"Nowhere Neil have I sought to establish nor stated that work is not to be carried out on earth. Else what is providence for."

You say that, but then, how would you solve the dilemma if you were confronted by it? I got no answer. There was also a Huguenot colony in Florida once.

a) Sure they do, but it still does not prove that work itself is spiritually defective. It's just difficult; that's all one can logically infer from the text. And again, was Abel's sacrifice possible if he was not supposed to do secular work like raising sheep?

b) But what part of the difference is relevant to your argument? You simply assume it is, w/o proof.

c) I never said work was worship; it is different, yes, but not inferior for a believer.

#) Huh? He said nothing about neighborliness, but their attitude about Providence.

You may not argue that secular work should cease, but by deprecating it as an option for "separated" Christians, the result can be the same. Ironic about Rom. 12:1, for if it means what you think, then Paul was a hypocrite by making tents for a living (I repeat, see Acts 18:3). 2 Tim. 1:9 is about justification, not vocation; 1 Pet. 1:15-16 says being holy in all "manner of conversation;" how is secular work excluded here?

12

News Item2/3/11 11:22 AM
Prentons  Find all comments by Prentons
Neil wrote:
an isolated village
Nowhere Neil have I sought to establish nor stated that work is not to be carried out on earth. Else what is providence for.
Neil wrote:
a) I don't understand your question
b) Secular
c) work done by reprobates
#) Luke 3:14
a) The "hardships" you referred to in your last post could not exist without the works involved re v17.

b) I perceive a big difference between the Garden of Eden in direct relationship and experience of God, and - This FALLEN world and the effects of sin AND v17.

c) Ro 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? = Do both clay lumps "worship" "serve" God to His satisfaction?

#) John is merely qualifying their actions within the community to be of a "good" and neighbourly nature. Thus of Christian values.

The point is not that secular work should cease to exist - it is essential to life on earth. My original post was, "I think there is a distinction between the two aspects of a Christians life and work." = Christian witness is carried out in the world where we work and live. However the separation between the two is, referred to at Rom 12:1, 2Tim 1:9, 1Pet 1:15,16.

11

News Item2/2/11 6:59 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Imagine an isolated village where nearly everyone is credibly a Christian (not an extreme case, e.g. Plymouth Plantation), and, believing as Prentons does, they all engage only in spiritual vocations. Who will till the cursed ground to pay the tithe or feed them?

Now OTOH, if churchmen can't rely on the tithe, then they must till the ground to "earn their crust" in the temporal estate, in which case, they run afoul of what Prentons says. The Apostle Paul himself was an offender here, in making tents (Acts 18:3).

10

News Item2/2/11 5:11 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
a) I don't understand your question. Is it related to contingency?
b) Sure it is. Secular literally means "of the world," man was to work in the world (that's where the Garden was), so by definition, his work is secular. Nothing is said about worship at this point, so we cannot infer anything about how he worshipped. The first obvious acts of worship were Cain's & Abel's. And were they priests, or farmers?
c) The work done by reprobates is sin, as Prov. 21:4 says. Work by believers is "good," as says Eph. 4:28
d) Perhaps I was confused, for I didn't understand how different "roles" solves the problem I originally posed; it seems to beg the question (whether a woman can serve God properly outside of ministry).

Such questions are OK, but you still haven't supplied any positive Scriptural justification beyond (you suppose) Gen. 3. Whereas, I see verses suggesting that secular vocations are not to be deprecated:
Luke 3:14 - If soldiering is inferior (esp. as Christian pacifists maintain), then why did John the Baptist tell them to be content with their wages instead of quitting ASAP & adopting a spiritual vocation?
James 4:13-15 - Same issue; if commerce is inferior to ministry, then why didn't James tell his disobedient readers to quit being merchants altogether?

9

News Item2/2/11 3:00 PM
Prentons  Find all comments by Prentons
Neil wrote:
a) the text does not say that the work itself is punishment, but only the attendant extra hardships

b) what about Adam's gardening *before* the Fall?

c) that does not prove secular work is therefore inferior service for the elect.

d) "Serving God is no less a spiritual ability from God and the Holy Spirit than it is of mans." So a woman can serve God well w/o a church office, but a man falls short if he doesn't. What Scriptural grounds for this odd double standard?

a) What is the quote "hardships" without the work?

b) Man in his 'sinless' estate working directly for God in God's presence and in God's garden - is secular?

c) Whats the difference to God, of "work" done by reprobates - and "work" done by believers?

d) I think on this one you really need to read my statement again. Your response seems at variance with the point made.

8

News Item2/1/11 6:00 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
"Apart from the obvious fact that it is a punishment dilivered by the Lord on mankind." - Not obvious to me; the text does not say that the work itself is punishment, but only the attendant extra hardships. And again, what about Adam's gardening *before* the Fall? That was secular work, but you did not address it.

"God is not providing a circumstance for spiritual life to the sinners." A sort of strawman - no one is claiming secular work can save anyone. Neither do pious, even miraculous, acts (Matt. 7:21ff), only faith. The plowing of the wicked is indeed sin (Prov. 21:4), but that does not prove secular work is therefore inferior service for the elect.

"Serving God is no less a spiritual ability from God and the Holy Spirit than it is of mans." So a woman can serve God well w/o a church office, but a man falls short if he doesn't. What Scriptural grounds for this odd double standard?

The other comments are merely bare assertions (e.g., "I think"), void of any argument from Scripture.

7
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