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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  7/11/2014
WEDNESDAY, SEP 29, 2010  |  32 comments
Obama omits 'Creator' from 'Inalienable Rights' again
Just one week after President Barack Obama came under fire for omitting man’s “Creator” as the source of his “inalienable rights” — as described in the U.S. Declaration of Independence — he’s done it again. This time, the president was delivering remarks at a Democratic Party fundraiser in New York City, raising money for his party’s midterm election races.

During the Sept. 22 fundraiser at New York’s Roosevelt Hotel, President Obama told the audience:

[I]f we stay true to our values, if we believe that all people are created equal and everybody is endowed with certain inalienable rights and we’re going to make those words live, and we’re going to give everybody opportunity, everybody a ladder into the middle class, every child able to go as far as their dreams will take them — if we stay true to that, then we’re going to be able to maintain the energy and the focus, the fight, the gumption to ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 32 user comment(s)
News Item10/7/10 11:40 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Herme,

You have been claiming that Paul's citation of "thou shalt not muzzle an Ox etc.." is "clearly intended as a lesson in how to read the OT". Let's have a look...

1Cr 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

When Paul said "For our sakes, no doubt" he was speaking of Barnabas and himself (1 Cor 9:6), as ministers of the gospel, having the lawful right to expect their needs to be provided for by the congregation they ministered to. If God cared about oxen by giving this statute, much more would He ordain that His ministers be cared for (1 Cor 9:14).

How you can boldly claim that this text is "clearly intended as a lesson in how to read the OT", along with the elusive lesson, remains a mystery.

32

News Item10/7/10 9:38 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Proof texter wrote:
Now we understand why you called Obama an idiot. It is no reflection on him, but a clear reflection on you.
I suppose I deserve that since I didn't footnote my comment as sarcasm. What a shame when perfectly good sarcasm goes to waste.

Obviously Obama is a highly educated man, far surpassing my fomal education but all that knowledge will be as chaff swept from the summer threshing floor when all stand before the righteous Judge of quick and dead. But praise be to God for the wise in His knowledge shall shine as the brightness of the stars for ever and ever. (Dan 12:3)

31

News Item10/7/10 8:48 AM
Proof texter  Find all comments by Proof texter
Lurker wrote:
..insults are the response of last resort.....
Now we understand why you called Obama an idiot. It is no reflection on him, but a clear reflection on you.
30

News Item10/6/10 8:15 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Herme wrote:
As I said you're a waste of time.

So you would take what is clearly intended as a lesson in how to read the OT and make that a divinely inspired metaphor that we dare not imitate! Wow! How clever are you?

As expected. When confronted with an answer that you can't refute, insults are the response of last resort.

Perhaps you have forgotten that in Acts 23:5 Paul applied exactly the same literal meaning as is found in Exodus 22:28 text which he quoted so your assertion that Paul's citation of "thou shalt not muzzle an Ox etc.." is "clearly intended as a lesson in how to read the OT" fails miserably.

If you expect me to give audience to this type of willy-nilly hermeneutic you are wasting both your time and mine. I adhere to the historical-grammatical hermeneutic which strives to discover the Author's original intended meaning. Exactly what you are striving for is a mystery.

Btw, I would appreciate an answer to my question: "from whence do you receive your authority to do the same with Exodus 22:28?"

29

News Item10/6/10 4:56 PM
Herme  Find all comments by Herme
Lurker wrote:
Of course I did. You just don't like my response because it demonstrates how unlikely your proposition actually is.

Quite the contrary, Paul did not violate or nullify the context of this statute. He took a text which was given literally and used it as a metaphor. He did the same thing with Mount Sinai, Hagar, Mount Zion, Jerusalem and Sarah (Gal 4:24) to name a few more. I am compelled to believe he received his authority to do so from the Holy Spirit.
Now, from whence do you receive your authority to do the same with Exodus 22:28?

Actually, I am teachable.... just not by tradition; "prove all things, hold fast that which is good".

As I said you're a waste of time.

So you would take what is clearly intended as a lesson in how to read the OT and make that a divinely inspired metaphor that we dare not imitate! Wow! How clever are you?

28

News Item10/6/10 9:18 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Herme wrote:
Lurker, you did not actually respond to the passage which I gave. Telling that!
Of course I did. You just don't like my response because it demonstrates how unlikely your proposition actually is.

Herme wrote:
show me how Paul was justified in expounding it as he did in the NT, nullifying the context of the passage.
Quite the contrary, Paul did not violate or nullify the context of this statute. He took a text which was given literally and used it as a metaphor. He did the same thing with Mount Sinai, Hagar, Mount Zion, Jerusalem and Sarah (Gal 4:24) to name a few more. I am compelled to believe he received his authority to do so from the Holy Spirit.

Now, from whence do you receive your authority to do the same with Exodus 22:28?

Herme wrote:
You're not the teachable type
Actually, I am teachable.... just not by tradition; "prove all things, hold fast that which is good".
27

News Item10/6/10 4:36 AM
Herme  Find all comments by Herme
Lurker wrote:
..
Tell me more about this "underlying principal" which nullifies the context of Exodus 22:28 and causes it to apply to Obama and, by extension, every head of state on the planet which presently includes the pope as head of Vatican City/State.
Lurker, you did not actually respond to the passage which I gave. Telling that!

You're not the teachable type, otherwise I might even have a shot.

I'll tell you what, why don't you take the passage that I quoted viz. "thou shalt not muzzle an Ox etc.." and then show me how Paul was justified in expounding it as he did in the NT, nullifying the context of the passage. Once you do this, let's see whether you get Paul's method of applying of the scriptures.

26

News Item10/6/10 12:32 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Herme wrote:
Yeah sure. I wonder what you would have made of "thou shalt not muzzle an Ox.." without the NT spelling out the application of the underlying principle?!!
You mean Israel had to wait 1500 years before they could understand the "underlying principles" of the covenant God had enjoined to them at Sinai? Poor Israel! Their lives depended on keeping that covenant.

Exd 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people...

Tell me more about this "underlying principal" which nullifies the context of Exodus 22:28 and causes it to apply to Obama and, by extension, every head of state on the planet which presently includes the pope as head of Vatican City/State.

25

News Item10/5/10 5:44 PM
Herme  Find all comments by Herme
Lurker wrote:
I have limited Exodus 22:28 to exactly what its context requires:
.....
Yeah sure. I wonder what you would have made of "thou shalt not muzzle an Ox.." without the NT spelling out the application of the underlying principle?!!

I bet we'd have been in for a treat, including the limitation that this principle would only apply to Oxen owned by the Hebrew people

24

News Item10/5/10 3:42 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Mike wrote:
Obama is not an idiot; he knows what he is doing.
I agree, Mike. I guess some people have no appreciation for sarcasm.
23

News Item10/5/10 12:39 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Proof Texter wrote:
---
I am sure Lurker would insist that he has observed 1 Peter 2.13-17, and given honor where honor is due, even in referring to Obama as an idiot. What I find incomprehensible is that after saying something that rude he has the audacity to cite Romans 13!! Simply staggering!
Obama is not an idiot; he knows what he is doing. But the really incomprehensible thing is that some think Obama is our ruler. No president of the US is ruler.
22

News Item10/5/10 12:06 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Alan H wrote:
So does Act 23:5: "Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people."

By limiting the principle....

I have limited Exodus 22:28 to exactly what its context requires:

Exd 20:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto ***the children of Israel***

Exd 21:1 Now these [are] the judgments which thou shalt set before ***them***.

Exd 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of ***thy people***.

You and PT have expanded this Sinaitic covenant judgment to include Obama and by extension every head of state on the planet when it was clearly limited to rulers of the Lord's congregation viz: high priests and kings who sat in David's throne. By what authority do you take this liberty and presume to impose it on others?

Regarding 1 Peter 2:13-17: Peter refers to the same "higher powers" who bears the Lord's glittering sword (Deut 32:41) that Paul spoke of in Romans 13. The first to bear that sword was Nebuchadnezzar (Ezek 30:24-25). You can figure out who bear it during the time Paul wrote to the Romans and Peter wrote to the strangers scattered abroad but, as for me, it was not Caesar nor is it presently Obama.

21

News Item10/4/10 6:10 PM
WayneUK  Find all comments by WayneUK
Posting...
20

News Item10/4/10 5:59 PM
Proof Texter  Find all comments by Proof Texter
Alan H wrote:
So does Act 23:5: "Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people."
By limiting the principle, Lurker has approved the practice, which he himself exemplified:
I should not worry about Lurker. I have been on SA for many years and have never been able to make sense of many of his postings. His hermeneutical principles have no coherence and are pretty unique. In fact he is a law unto himself when it comes to bible interpretation. I doubt he has ever read a book on the subject.

I am sure Lurker would insist that he has observed 1 Peter 2.13-17, and given honor where honor is due, even in referring to Obama as an idiot. What I find incomprehensible is that after saying something that rude he has the audacity to cite Romans 13!! Simply staggering!

19

News Item10/4/10 2:22 PM
Alan H | Washington State  Protected NameFind all comments by Alan H
Proof texter wrote:
I did not deny that Paul made a specific application to the High Priest. What I was pointing out was that Exodus 22.28 has a wider application than just the high priest.
So does Act 23:5: "Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people."

By limiting the principle, Lurker has approved the practice, which he himself exemplified:

Lurker on 9/29/10 2:04 AM wrote:
Ah, but this idiot was ordained by God (Romans 13)...
18

News Item10/3/10 9:51 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Proof texter wrote:
Just because it applies to Christ does not mean that every other extension is invalid. If Obama is a ruler then it should also apply to him.
It should? While you are intently focusing your attention on the word "ruler" in Ex 22:28 you are not paying attention to the meaning of "thy people". Who is "thy people" but the ecclesia or congregation (Israel Gal 6:16) of God?

Deu 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.

7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:

8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Sorry, PT, but God's peculiar people now have but one "shepherd and bishop of our souls" and it certainly isn't Obama.

Proof texter wrote:
... you have no joined up thinking.
Some day you'll have to tell me about this "joined up thinking" thingy.
17

News Item10/3/10 7:30 PM
Proof texter  Find all comments by Proof texter
Lurker wrote:
1) Didn't say it did not. Would you say it applies to Obama? Or is it more likely that it presently pertains to the fulfillment of David's type viz: "an high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec" aka "Christ in you, the hope of glory"?...
Just because it applies to Christ does not mean that every other extension is invalid. If Obama is a ruler then it should also apply to him.

Lurker wrote:
2) It doesn't. The reference is made by Paul in Acts 23:5. Will you dispute with Paul as well or just snip that part of the verse since it doesn't suit your needs?...
I did not deny that Paul made a specific application to the High Priest. What I was pointing out was that Exodus 22.28 has a wider application than just the high priest. But as I said you have no joined up thinking.
16

News Item10/2/10 9:23 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
Mike wrote:
Our responsibility toward elders assumes......
Mike NY
In the time we are living in, and other times as well, it seems there have been elders/leaders both civil and religous who have greatly abused their authority (responsibility to God) by the position they happened to occupy and not necessarily merit.

IMHO Belivers need as strong dose of: "Our first foremost alligiance, loyalty and obedience belong to the Lord Jesus Christ, who has told us to see to it that no one deceive us, or mislead us into disobedience and unfaithfulness to Him." Leaders and elders who encourage the child of God in this are truly a great blessing while those in positions of authority (responsibility) both civil and religious who don't are another story altogether.

15

News Item10/2/10 7:06 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Hmmmmm wrote:
Really Mike I am surprised at you!
The elders of the local church are a servants of the church but also rulers. So should we use your samantics to absolve ourselves of responsibility towards them?!
And here I thought it was the president we were talking about. Oh well.

Our responsibility toward elders assumes they meet elder requirements, such as they must be "blameless" "not greedy of filthy lucre" "not a novice" "have a good report of them which are without."

It looks like you wish to call the president the ruler of the people, for "servant" is merely semantics because elders are rulers and servants, etc. But if we apply elder qualifications to him, we might have to conclude he doesn't meet them, and our responsibility is to then remove him from office in 2012, and select a new servant. Or ruler, if you prefer.

14

News Item10/2/10 6:53 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Proof texter wrote:
1) Tell me Lurker, do you think that the prohibition of Exodus 22.28, which is what is referred to in Acts 23.5, did not apply to the likes of David?

2) Where in Exodus 22.28 does it maker any reference to the High Priest?

1) Didn't say it did not. Would you say it applies to Obama? Or is it more likely that it presently pertains to the fulfillment of David's type viz: "an high priest forever after the order of Melchisedec" aka "Christ in you, the hope of glory"?

Eze 20:33 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, **will I rule over you**

Eze 37:24 And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

2) It doesn't. The reference is made by Paul in Acts 23:5. Will you dispute with Paul as well or just snip that part of the verse since it doesn't suit your needs?

Proof texter wrote:
Perhaps we proof-texter do have joined up thinking, which you clearly lack!
I have no idea what "joined up thinking" is but if your prooftexts, which fail to make your point, whatever it may be, are an example you are right.
13
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