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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  7/23/2014
THURSDAY, AUG 19, 2010  |  25 comments
Traditional hymns falling out of favour at funerals
Fewer than one in five people who voted in a survey asking people which songs they wanted player at their funeral chose hymns.

Timeless classic songs such as 'What a Wonderful World' by Louis Armstrong are increasingly popular choices for final farewells, according to the research for the website My Last Song.

The poll, which asked people to vote on the type of music they wanted played at their funeral, found that 39 per cent chose modern secular music while those who wanted a mixture of all categories accounted for 27 per cent. ...


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www.telegraph.co.uk

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· Page 1 ·  Found: 25 user comment(s)
News Item8/26/10 12:16 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Maybe R.Gr you could share at least some brief posts about your conclusions after researching the subject of psalm singing in the assembly.
25

News Item8/26/10 8:40 AM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
That's okay R.Gr hee hee

1. Regarding N and A, no I cannot answer your question.

2. Regarding psalm-singing, I am convinced it is correct to do so in the assembly. In charismatic churches I have experienced others singing psalms in tongues, and at home I would even do so myself, accompanied by my electric guitar. I no longer do this, and am developing a better understanding of how the regulative principle applies to biblical worship.

3. Regarding 1 Cor 14:13-17, yes my wording was unclear as to what I meant. Paul seems to be saying that singing or praying with the understanding meant his own language, whereas singing and praying with the Spirit was in "an unknown tongue" which required interpretation in order to edify the church.

4. Regarding the difference between personal and corporate worship, surely it is necessary to regulate corporate worship? Otherwise, there could well be a free-for-all singing, clapping, praying chaotic meeting.

5. But when I'm on my own, it is just me and the Lord, and there are not others to consider.

6. I am a turnip not a scholar, so if my opinions go against scholarly teaching, I am willing to consider them, providing I don't have to read too much!

24

News Item8/26/10 3:50 AM
R .Gr | australia  Find all comments by R .Gr
John UK wrote:
Thanks R, that explains it:
what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
1 Corinthians 14:13-17 KJV
It seems to me this passage is about singing and praying in "tongues", which is not found in a cessationist church.
Nadab and Abihu suffered an immediate death penalty, that's serious enough for me.

I will say sorry too for thinking you were Psalms only. I didn,t know you were a luke warm psalm singer.
I too have studied this subject,the early church sang them. - time and lack of space dont permit me to write in detail. Also no that passage is not talking about singing and praying in tongues. Read any decent reform comentry.
How serious ....I knew you would not answer the question heaven or hell?
As Morris Robert said to me once about this. - to him which not of faith is sin God bless you.......
Spiritual song ,means just that. Get over it John. All the Best brother.

23

News Item8/25/10 6:30 AM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Thanks R, that explains it:

Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
1 Corinthians 14:13-17 KJV

It seems to me this passage is about singing and praying in "tongues", which is not found in a cessationist church.

Nadab and Abihu suffered an immediate death penalty, that's serious enough for me.

It would take years for me to post up the full argument. I was convinced after reading just some of a 600 A4 page series of lectures loaned to me by a farmer friend. It is available from STILL WATERS REVIVAL BOOKS, which is a massive site for good sound Protestant literature and is called:

"The Psalms in Worship" a series of convention papers (Pittsburgh 1905) edited by John McNaugher.

22

News Item8/25/10 4:49 AM
R .Gr | australia  Find all comments by R .Gr
John UK wrote:
Sorry John. I did the first time but I got timed out and lost what I originally said then hurried so to be on time for church in the morn I mis typed the cor passage its 1cor 14:15. Sorry about that. Your allusion to Nadab and Abihu is even more strange that passage has nothing to do with singing of hymns but strange fire.John you said suffered greatly what does that ,mean will I see Nadab and Abihu in heaven or hell? If in hell well there going to be alot of reformed poeple in there according to your law.It will be meeted back to you - My guess you wont answer either way.

You have lost your point and argument if you can sing canticles where is your letter of the law to do so. Psalm, psalm, psalm isnt. Be consistant. There is no commandment that is only good for one day of the week and the rest you can do what you like.Eph 5:19 does not mean the same thing each time.Spiritual songs means just that the. The Word is not the word for God breathed. Spiritual as opposed to carnal. Why not you stress the latter part of 5:19 unto the Lord put Emphasis on that! 1 cor 14:15 What sayest thou?

21

News Item8/23/10 3:31 PM
metwo  Find all comments by metwo
John UK wrote:
Ooer, the guy that took the scriptura out of sola scriptura has just turned up, I'm outta here!

That's him!

solar glasses...can't look!

20

News Item8/23/10 3:06 PM
Gpost  Find all comments by Gpost
Mike wrote:
Salvation the gift, faith the means, which means is not a "thing" that was given, but a trust that is expressed. Thus man brings nothing (no thing) when he brings faith, and no credit is due him for the bringing of it.

"I admit, indeed, that faith is the proper and entire work of the Holy Spirit, enlightened by whom we recognise God and the treasures of his grace, and without whose illumination our mind is so blind that it can see nothing, so stupid that it has no relish for spiritual things. But for the one Divine blessing which they proclaim we count three. For, first, the Lord teaches and trains us by his word; next, he confirms us by his sacraments; lastly, he illumines our mind by the light of his Holy Spirit, and opens up an entrance into our hearts for his word and sacraments, which would otherwise only strike our ears, and fall upon our sight, but by no means affect us inwardly." (J.Calvin Inst. 4.14.8)

"But as faith is his (Holy Spirit) principal work, all those passages which express his power and operations are, in a great measure, referred to it, as it is, only by faith that he brings us to the light of the Gospel, as John teaches" (Calvin Inst 3.1.4)

19

News Item8/23/10 2:36 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
I follow the regulative principle diligently, bro. A bowl of high-fiber cereal every morning.
Calvin, from Commentary on Ephesians 2:8 "When, on the part of man, the act of receiving salvation is made to consist in faith alone, all other means, on which men are accustomed to rely, are discarded. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ. And so he adds, not of yourselves; that claiming nothing for themselves, they may acknowledge God alone as the author of their salvation."
Salvation the gift, faith the means, which means is not a "thing" that was given, but a trust that is expressed. Thus man brings nothing (no thing) when he brings faith, and no credit is due him for the bringing of it.
Whichever Scotty you prefer.
1.
2. Very naughty, smacky botty!
3. True, so why do most believe not? Are they not able to believe?
4. I'll go for the Highlander. But for my Sunday treat, I did listen to Allan Murray at Brora in Sutherland.

Ooer, the guy that took the scriptura out of sola scriptura has just turned up, I'm outta here!

18

News Item8/23/10 1:39 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
John UK wrote:
---
But it is a bit different in the assembly of the saints. You'd be hard pressed to find an example of hymn-singing as we know it today, in the New Testament. And if we follow the regulative principle, we must find that example, n'est pas?
---
But where on earth did that "saving faith" come from, eh?
Not from "on earth", no.
Maybe from heaven? Yes, from heaven.

And which Scotty are you thinking of BTW?

I follow the regulative principle diligently, bro. A bowl of high-fiber cereal every morning.

Calvin, from Commentary on Ephesians 2:8 "When, on the part of man, the act of receiving salvation is made to consist in faith alone, all other means, on which men are accustomed to rely, are discarded. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ. And so he adds, not of yourselves; that claiming nothing for themselves, they may acknowledge God alone as the author of their salvation."

Salvation the gift, faith the means, which means is not a "thing" that was given, but a trust that is expressed. Thus man brings nothing (no thing) when he brings faith, and no credit is due him for the bringing of it.

Whichever Scotty you prefer.

17

News Item8/23/10 11:05 AM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
I was thinking, would I be allowed to praise him using my own words? Or must I use David's for it to count as real praise? Did God make us with minds, or as playback devices?
PS the gift of God is eternal life. Don't be confused by our friend from north of Hadrian's.
Just as sin is an expression of the heart, so is praise from a renewed heart. God accepts it as such, methinks.

But it is a bit different in the assembly of the saints. You'd be hard pressed to find an example of hymn-singing as we know it today, in the New Testament. And if we follow the regulative principle, we must find that example, n'est pas?

Yes, the gift of God is eternal life:
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:23 KJV

But where on earth did that "saving faith" come from, eh?

Not from "on earth", no.

Maybe from heaven? Yes, from heaven.

I trust that wraps it all up neatly for you Mike.

And which Scotty are you thinking of BTW?

16

News Item8/23/10 10:16 AM
North of Hadrians Garage  Find all comments by North of Hadrians Garage
Mike wrote:
I was thinking, would I be allowed to praise him using my own words? Or must I use David's for it to count as real praise? Did God make us with minds, or as playback devices?
PS the gift of God is eternal life. Don't be confused by our friend from north of Hadrian's.
Aww Mike
Of course you can do better than the Bible's words.

When it comes to Hymn's you can do better than Wesley, Watts, Crosby, Elliot etc etc.

Hymn's and Psalms by Mike. Hey.

As for gifts from God. "Eternal life" - why everybody gets a piece of that action in hell, OR a remnant get to heaven.

But the GIFT of FAITH, as per Eph 2:8, makes all the difference to which eternal holiday resort you end up in.
God's election, without any input by the sinner whatever, provides the access to heaven, naturally.

15

News Item8/23/10 8:45 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
John UK wrote:
Mike, I too pray you never arrive at the point where personal worship of God is prefaced with, whether conscious of it or not, "David said..."
Hey, if you're walking down the street in some upstate New York village, and there's a big grin on your face because you've just been meditating on the glory of having eternal life as a free gift, that life being received by faith in Christ, and that faith being a gift of God freely and sovereignly given to you on account of God's good pleasure and purpose towards you as one of his elect sheep, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, surely that grin and maybe some accompanying words like "Praise God!" must count as personal worship?
Whatever are you thinking of?
I was thinking, would I be allowed to praise him using my own words? Or must I use David's for it to count as real praise? Did God make us with minds, or as playback devices?

PS the gift of God is eternal life. Don't be confused by our friend from north of Hadrian's.

14

News Item8/22/10 10:34 AM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
I pray I never arrive at the point where personal worship of God is prefaced with, whether conscious of it or not, "David said..."
Mike, I too pray you never arrive at the point where personal worship of God is prefaced with, whether conscious of it or not, "David said..."

Hey, if you're walking down the street in some upstate New York village, and there's a big grin on your face because you've just been meditating on the glory of having eternal life as a free gift, that life being received by faith in Christ, and that faith being a gift of God freely and sovereignly given to you on account of God's good pleasure and purpose towards you as one of his elect sheep, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, surely that grin and maybe some accompanying words like "Praise God!" must count as personal worship?

Whatever are you thinking of?

13

News Item8/22/10 8:46 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
I pray I never arrive at the point where personal worship of God is prefaced with, whether conscious of it or not, "David said..."
12

News Item8/22/10 4:53 AM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
R .Gr wrote:
Enslavment, old, old? Got to laugh. Only you say this. Extempore preaching is allowed, extempore, praying is allowed, so too extempore singing. The greatest song in the Bible is Song of songs yet you arnt allowed to sing it. The Word Spiritual song mean just that not carnal. Your missing what 1 cor 15:14 means learn that then come back. Quence not the Spirit. God commands!!
I note that you attempt not to explain Ephesians 5:19. You also imagine that the word "hymn" means the same as what we understand by the word today. But what did Paul mean? And what did his hearers understand by it? Look in to it.

Who said I wasn't allowed to sing The Canticles? Not I. Who said I wasn't allowed to compose my own worship song and sing it? Not I. You greatly err, my friend.

As for your text:

And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1 Corinthians 15:14 KJV

Please explain how this is relevant to the debate.

As for quenching the Spirit, the best example of this is the two "modern-style" worshippers known as Nadab and Abihu, who disobeyed the Lord in the manner of their "worship". They suffered greatly as a result of their DIY "worship".

11

News Item8/21/10 9:03 PM
R .Gr | australia  Find all comments by R .Gr
John UK wrote:
I love your style Mike, and you're on the button in your third point.
However, do you recall the days of the Old-Old-Greek text, when the Ephesian 5:19 verse was written and understood by the writer and reader alike? No?
Well in that case it would do you well to find some good literature by real scholars who still do understand what Paul meant by....
1. Psalms
2. Hymns
3. Spiritual songs
The problem is, because of tradition, it is not so easy to escape from the bondage of enslavement to a wrong reading of this verse, of which enslavement I was wrapped up for some twenty years and more, until I looked into it.
Sure the Old-Old-Version has psalms, psalms and psalms.
Enslavment, old, old? Got to laugh. Only you say this. Extempore preaching is allowed, extempore, praying is allowed, so too extempore singing. The greatest song in the Bible is Song of songs yet you arnt allowed to sing it. The Word Spiritual song mean just that not carnal. Your missing what 1 cor 15:14 means learn that then come back. Quence not the Spirit. God commands!!
10

News Item8/19/10 4:59 PM
nescafe  Find all comments by nescafe
Mike wrote:
Ephesians 5:19
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Have you been peeking into the New-New Version bro? You know, the one that says psalms and psalms and psalms?
But yet there is a truth to be gleaned from the verse, and that is this: If one is solely reading praise which is from the heart of another, he can hardly be making melody to the Lord from his own.
Eph 5:19 - Now c'mon Mike, these nice Calvinists have told you before that psalms, hymns and spiritual songs are all contained in the Book of Psalms, written by God, and conveniently placed, by the Lord, in the centre of your Bible for you.

If you don't use God's hymn book - then you must be using someone elses.
Is that a good idea?

9

News Item8/19/10 4:52 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
Ephesians 5:19
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Have you been peeking into the New-New Version bro? You know, the one that says psalms and psalms and psalms?
But yet there is a truth to be gleaned from the verse, and that is this: If one is solely reading praise which is from the heart of another, he can hardly be making melody to the Lord from his own.
I love your style Mike, and you're on the button in your third point.

However, do you recall the days of the Old-Old-Greek text, when the Ephesian 5:19 verse was written and understood by the writer and reader alike? No?

Well in that case it would do you well to find some good literature by real scholars who still do understand what Paul meant by....

1. Psalms
2. Hymns
3. Spiritual songs

The problem is, because of tradition, it is not so easy to escape from the bondage of enslavement to a wrong reading of this verse, of which enslavement I was wrapped up for some twenty years and more, until I looked into it.

Sure the Old-Old-Version has psalms, psalms and psalms.

8

News Item8/19/10 4:26 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
John UK wrote:
Good answer Mike, but.....
If we are to "stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free", we would be obeying scripture in "standing fast" would we not?
So why should we therefore not stand fast in obeying scripture which teaches we are to sing psalms in the assembly of the saints?
I hardly think it correct to call it bondage to sing God's praises in the manner he has prescribed.
Ephesians 5:19
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Have you been peeking into the New-New Version bro? You know, the one that says psalms and psalms and psalms?

But yet there is a truth to be gleaned from the verse, and that is this: If one is solely reading praise which is from the heart of another, he can hardly be making melody to the Lord from his own.

7

News Item8/19/10 3:51 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
I don't think so, John. No point in exchanging one bondage for another.
Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Good answer Mike, but.....

If we are to "stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free", we would be obeying scripture in "standing fast" would we not?

So why should we therefore not stand fast in obeying scripture which teaches we are to sing psalms in the assembly of the saints?

I hardly think it correct to call it bondage to sing God's praises in the manner he has prescribed.

6
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