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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  9/24/2014
WEDNESDAY, JUN 23, 2010  |  266 comments
Jesus will return by 2050, say 40pc of Americans
Americans are largely optimistic about the future, according to the poll from the Pew Research Center For The People and The Press/Smithsonian Magazine.

By mid century, 71 per cent believe cancer will be cured, 66 per cent say artificial limbs will work better than real ones and 81 per cent believe computers will be able to converse like humans.

• 41 per cent say Jesus Christ will return within the next 40 years while 46 per cent say this will definitely or probably not happen.

• 63 per cent anticipate the demise of paper money ...


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
www.telegraph.co.uk

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News Item7/24/10 7:46 PM
Ivor  Find all comments by Ivor
to continue

The believers’ inheritance was already prepared before this world was created:
“Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matthew 25:34)

So Why The Cross?
A logical question at this point is, “If Christ already made the payment before this world was created, then why did He go to the cross?” Christ had already made the payment for sin prior to Creation, so from a judicial standpoint there was no need for Christ to go to the cross. This is why God recorded that no sin was found in Christ:“Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man.” (Luke 23:4)
In the past we’ve always understood this to be stating the obvious: Jesus Himself never sinned. We would say He was carrying our sins, but He Himself was without sin. However, now we can better understand why God put this in the Bible. True, Jesus Himself was without sin, but at that point He wasn’t carrying the elect’s sins either because they had already been paid for before Creation.

Now we know that Christ went to the cross so He could demonstrate His love:
“In this was manifested t we might live ...... (1 John 4:9)

266

News Item7/24/10 7:44 PM
DavidD1960 | Louisiana  Find all comments by DavidD1960
i'm confused,you're tellin us that a righteous God caused Christ to suffer for sin,before the first sin was even committed? that can't be right.
265

News Item7/24/10 7:37 PM
Ivor  Find all comments by Ivor
to continue

Christ was already God’s begotten Son before He was sent into the world:
“In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.” (1 John 4:9)
We know that Christ had to die, both in body and soul, in order to become begotten when resurrected. Why then does God call Him the begotten Son even before the cross?

Before The Foundation Of The World

Christ was already the begotten Son before 7 BC because the cross was not the first time He suffered. Christ had already been slain to pay for sins before this world was even created:
“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8)

Christ finished the work of paying for sins before this world was created:
“For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.” (Hebrews 4:3)

264

News Item7/24/10 7:33 PM
DavidD1960 | Louisiana  Find all comments by DavidD1960
awe,the plot thickens
263

News Item7/24/10 6:43 PM
Ivor  Find all comments by Ivor
to continue
“Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead” (Romans 1:3-4)

This is admittedly difficult to grasp so let’s briefly recap what we’ve discussed: Christ is from eternity past. In order to be begotten He had to have a beginning. In order to have a beginning He had to, in a spiritual sense that we can’t understand, be spiritually dead. This is what happened when He paid for the sins of the believers. He paid the penalty all unsaved individuals must eventually pay: eternal death, both body and soul.

Now we have a problem though. God refers to Christ as His begotten Son even before Christ ever went to the cross:
“No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” (John 1:18)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

262

News Item7/24/10 6:41 PM
Randolph  Find all comments by Randolph
Ivor wrote:
to continue
We used to believe the unsaved would be punished for sin by having to spend an eternity in a place called hell being tormented forever. We therefore deduced that, in order to pay for the sins of the believers, Christ had to endure the equivalent of spending an eternity in hell. However, now we know that the unsaved will not spend an eternity in hell. The punishment for sin is eternal death, both body and soul. Once this world has been destroyed, the unsaved will completely cease to exist (see Study on Hell).
To fully pay for the sins of the believers, Christ would have had to be put through the equivalent of eternal spriitual death. We can’t fully comprehend this, but it would have to have been a resurrection from the equivalent of annihilation. This is why Christ is spoken of as being begotten. He is from eternity past, but He had a beginning in that He came back from the equivalent of annihilation. That is how He was begotten and that is why the Father can accurately refer to Him as His begotten Son.
This is now only the heresy of Ellen G. White, JW, and Armstrongism, it has nothing to do with the topic. This thread will not continue if it remains Off Topic
261

News Item7/24/10 6:32 PM
Ivor  Find all comments by Ivor
to continue

We used to believe the unsaved would be punished for sin by having to spend an eternity in a place called hell being tormented forever. We therefore deduced that, in order to pay for the sins of the believers, Christ had to endure the equivalent of spending an eternity in hell. However, now we know that the unsaved will not spend an eternity in hell. The punishment for sin is eternal death, both body and soul. Once this world has been destroyed, the unsaved will completely cease to exist (see Study on Hell).

To fully pay for the sins of the believers, Christ would have had to be put through the equivalent of eternal spriitual death. We can’t fully comprehend this, but it would have to have been a resurrection from the equivalent of annihilation. This is why Christ is spoken of as being begotten. He is from eternity past, but He had a beginning in that He came back from the equivalent of annihilation. That is how He was begotten and that is why the Father can accurately refer to Him as His begotten Son.

This is further supported in Romans where God declares that Christ could only be a Son by being resurrected from the dead:

260

News Item7/24/10 6:23 PM
Idris  Find all comments by Idris
Bani Moukerjee
259

News Item7/24/10 6:09 PM
Ivor  Find all comments by Ivor
to continue

How Was Christ Begotten?

God calls Christ His only begotten Son:
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
The phrase “only begotten” comes from the Greek word monogenes, which is literally translated “only generated.” We know Christ is from eternity past so the idea that God created (or “generated”) Christ doesn’t square with the rest of the Bible. This is probably why the translators chose to use the word “begotten” instead of “generated.”

However, the fact still remains: in order to be begotten, Christ would have had to have a beginning. We know His existence didn’t begin in 7 BC; that’s just when He took on a human nature. As we examine this closer we will discover that 7 BC has nothing to do with why He is called the begotten Son.

258

News Item7/24/10 5:19 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
To continue:

Why was Jesus begotten at all? Why become a man? Because it was man that sinned against God, and man must pay the price of sin by way of substitution. Jesus, the perfect man, died for me. He had to be perfect, or he could not have stood in my place, he would have died for his own sins. But being sinless, and being an eternal Person, he could die for the human race and save whomsoever he chose to. This is "why" he was begotten. And this is "why" he had to be born of a virgin, to avoid the sinful nature passed on through a human father.

Now observe these verses:

John 1:12-14 KJV
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Here are sinners begotten and the Word begotten.

Note especially:

"the Word was made flesh"

"dwelt among us"

"we beheld his glory"

"the glory as of.."

What or Who?

"the only begotten of the Father"

And that, June, is the answer to your question.

257

News Item7/24/10 4:05 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
To continue:

Considering the fact that billions of people have been 'begotten' into this world, and that hundreds of millions have been born again (begotten of God) since the new covenant began, I am astonished that so many folks have such a problem when the Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as 'begotten'.

Theologians and commentators are of little use regarding this, as their statements are vague and mystical. Their high-falutin words don't wash much with me, and therefore I have had to come to my own opinion and beliefs without much help, except the word of God and the Word of God.

As I emphasised in a previous post, Joseph did NOT beget Jesus. So who did, considering he was born into this world as a genuine, fully-human baby?

This is where I have the greatest respect for all biblical literalists, who take not "everything" in the Bible literally, of course, but in the main they do.

In my next post, I will put up three consecutive verses which show the sinner being begotten of God and adopted as a son of God, and the Son of God at the time of his being begotten of the Father, the Eternal Word begotten.

Please note that I am not teaching anyone, but giving my own opinion on this, however I will be hard to shake on it.

256

News Item7/24/10 3:53 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Ah, Lurker, we will thank you for more or less bringing us back to topic by mentioning Harold Camping: Modern Day Cult Leader.

Well, to stray off of topic, only somewhat because at the end of the article LeHaye gets well described in, 'End Times' Authors Warn of Potential Threat to Religious Freedom in U.S..

Now SermonAudio know I often look at the main article of one of their threads, but look at some others that aren't mentioned!

Evidence for the Pre-Trib Rapture part 1, and Evidence for the Pre-Trib Rapture part 2.

Harry, I understand has a fondness for interpreting the Bible as Allegory, which thankfully most of you reject as a method.

255

News Item7/24/10 3:28 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
June wrote:
Spurgeon's thoughts on Ps. 2:7:
“I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”
I believe Paul puts this psalm in it's proper perspective:

Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Begotten in this text carries a different meaning entirely than that of "only begotten" (Greek; Monogenes) and to blend the two will only play into the snare of Camping's heresy.

Fred often said that Google is our friend but of a truth a good lexicon is our friend.

254

News Item7/24/10 3:22 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
Thank you June

To continue:

The spiritual re-birth, that is, a second birth, is by the Father through the ministry of the Holy Ghost, who works through the word, and the word preached:

For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1 Corinthians 4:15 KJV

Paul begat spiritual children.

I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:
Philemon 1:10 KJV

But Father God is the root cause:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:3 KJV

If any man believes that Jesus is The Christ, he has been begotten of God, and the evidence is, that he loves all other saints who have similarly been begotten of God.

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:1 KJV

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1 John 3:14 KJV

253

News Item7/24/10 2:49 PM
June  Find all comments by June
Spurgeon's thoughts on Ps. 2:7:
“I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”
******

"Thou art my Son." Here is a noble proof of the glorious Divinity of our Immanuel. "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?" What a mercy to have a Divine Redeemer in whom to rest our confidence!

"This day have I begotten thee." If this refers to the Godhead of our Lord, let us not attempt to fathom it, for it is a great truth, a truth reverently to be received, but not irreverently to be scanned.

It may be added, that if this relates to the Begotten One in his human nature, we must here also rejoice in the mystery, but not attempt to violate its sanctity by intrusive prying into the secrets of the Eternal God.

The things which are revealed are enough, without venturing into vain speculations. In attempting to define the Trinity, or unveil the essence of Divinity, many men have lost themselves: here great ships have foundered. What have we to do in such a sea with our frail skiffs?

252

News Item7/24/10 2:30 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Samantha wrote:
Christ is from eternity past. In order to be begotten He had to have a beginning. In order to have a beginning He had to, in a spiritual sense that we can’t understand, be spiritually dead.
In her post following this quote 7/22/10 10:55 AM Samantha cuts and pastes a string of prooftexts which she claims prove Jesus was slain before Gen 1:1 which begins with Heb 4:3. This is too funny. As Woteth properly points out in his post 7/22/10 5:14 PM the term "only begotten" means "the only one of its kind within a specific relationship" and "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind". It has nothing to do with the temporal in the case of God the Son.

To add to her woes, it isn't possible that she can appeal to Heb 4:3 as proof that "the believers inheritance was already prepared" before Gen 1:1 for two reasons:

1) The works were finished FROM, or at, the foundation of the world meaning Jesus would have to have been slain at the exact moment Gen 1:1 commenced.

2) The context will not support a time for "from the foundation of the world" prior to the end on the sixth day of creation.

As so we see the truth in John Heywood's (1546) old proverb: "There's none so blind as those who will not see."

251

News Item7/24/10 2:27 PM
John UK | Wales  Contact via emailFind all comments by John UK
The expression 'only begotten' is found in the Bible mainly in ref to the Lord Jesus Christ:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 KJV

as also: John 1:18, John 3:16, John 3:18, 1 John 4:9.

Also in ref to Isaac:

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Hebrews 11:17 KJV

If a man had only one son, he would be his only begotten son.

The phrase 'begotten' is inclusive of every human since Adam and Eve, every child born is 'begotten'.

1. And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
Matthew 1:6 KJV
2. Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons.
Acts 7:29 KJV
3. And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Matthew 1:16 KJV

Please note that Jesus was not begotten of Joseph.

And then we have 'begotten' spiritually, by the Father:

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
James 1:18 KJV

250

News Item7/24/10 2:09 PM
June  Find all comments by June
John, Is this your answer? I just now found a prior comment of yours on Pg. 2 of this thread
*********
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 KJV

When was Jesus begotten?

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psalms 2:7 KJV

One thing is for sure, it must have been post Genesis 1, because until then, there was no such thing as a "day".

Of course "The Word" is eternally God, made flesh in time.

Luke 1:30-33 KJV
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

The work of salvation was yet future, redemption was pre-planned, but not yet accomplished. The completion was at Calvary, and the application ever since.

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his peo

249

News Item7/24/10 11:27 AM
June  Find all comments by June
Jim Lincoln wrote:

"I would think many should be reminded a person make (may) meet God, at any time through death. If Christ doesn't come quickly then you are guaranteed to meet him through physical death. So, the question, should be, are you ready to die? You can die in the next few minutes."
*********

Amen to that Jim! Hence the exhortation in God's Word to make our calling and election sure.
(II Pet. 1:10)
**********
John wrote:

"I am yet willing to show you what the expression "only-begotten Son of God actually means, including "when" he was begotten and "why", and hopefully extricate you from the ropes which bind you, and the devil which blinds you.

As and when I have the time to do so."
************
John, have I missed and/or overlooked your response?
I confess this thread is becoming very difficult for me to follow.
If not, would you answer the question and / or provide an explanation, as my interest has been peaked!

248

News Item7/24/10 9:39 AM
more Folks in the bleachers  Find all comments by more Folks in the bleachers
John - UK,

In a prior post, someone posed a legitimate question to you, to which you indicated a response would be forthcoming.

Having waited now for a considerable and reasonable time for your response, we must now conclude that you are unable to do so, and will effectively regard your silence as your answer, which will be so noted.

247
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