"Let us take the tabernacle first. Do we find any allusion in the Mosaic record to instrumental music in the service of God? We do. Moses was commanded to make two silver trumpets, and we apprehend that in these silver trumpets we have the germ of that instrumental service afterward so fully developed in the temple. These trumpets, however, were always to be used at special seasons, and every allusion in the Scriptures to those instruments in the tabernacle worship is invariably bound up with the ceremonial observances which God appointed. Instrumental music, either singly or conjointly with the music of the voice, in God's praise, apart from sacrificial offerings, we never find. The invariable rule was, “Ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings.” [Numbers 10:10] Take away the burnt offerings, and remove the altars of incense, and you take away all the need for the silver trumpets of Moses." (Rev John M'Donald B.D.)
I love Calvin, Really love Spurgeon, but those men are not my authority. God's word is. The closest thing to a Biblical expaination I've heard regarding instruments, had to do with "Instuments were for the Old Testament Temple period, we are in the New Testament period". Yet I still do not see where that is a biblical demand not to use instruments. Insrtuments are not soley cerimonial, so as to have passed with the advent of Christ sacrifice. The is no New Testament injunction to stop using them. I think that OT. vs N.T argument is interesting coming from people who are Non Dispensationalst. Besides, if you are going to take the Regulative Principle to extreems, then you would have to admit that in just using human voices to sing, you are using tunes that are not found in the Bible. Therefore those tunes are of human origin. Yes we should protect music from worldiness and regulate worship according to the Word. But we need to be careful not to Add to scripture.
CALVIN "Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (I Cor. 14:16) What shall we then say of chanting, which fills the ears with nothing but an empty sound?" (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33)
BEZA "If the apostle justly prohibits the use of unknown tongues in the church, much less would he have tolerated these artificial musical performances which are addressed to the ear alone, and seldom strike the understanding even of the performers themselves." (Theodore Beza, scholar of Geneva, Girardeau's Instrumental Music, p. 166)
LUTHER "The organ in the worship Is the insignia of Baal… The Roman Catholic borrowed it from the Jews." (Martin Luther, Mcclintock & Strong's Encyclopedia Volume VI, page 762)
SPURGEON "Praise the Lord with the harp. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes. We do not need them. They would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice." (Cmtry on Psa 42:4) "David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, bellows, and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1Cor 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery"
The Christian Church may try to justify some things that are not explicit in Scripture today however general principles are still there.
In regards to my previous post, the following Biblical principle must always apply. Has anyone ever been unable to decipher the words being sung(of course, they have their big screens now)and were not able to engage the mind because the background music was so loud?
"What is the outcome then? I shall pray with the spirit and I shall pray with the mind also; I SHALL SING WITH THE SPIRIT AND I SHALL SING WITH THE MIND ALSO.
Mike wrote: What do you believe about musical instruments used in praise and worship?
"In the year 666 (the number of the beast) the churches received latin singing with organs from Pope Vitalian and began to sing latin mass, and to set up idolatrous images." (The Magdeburg Centuries)
"And if organs have no better father than a Roman Pontiff, nor more gracing birth than to be twins with the mass and idolatrous images, I conceive they'll not be for these reasons, the more acceptable to any true Protestants." (Writer 1713)
That seems to say it all Mike.
Plus instruments are from OT Temple ceremony - and not NT Church.
wayfare wrote: The problem which hymn singers of today have is not just the music and lyrics per se! It is the fact that a Book of the Bible, whose obvious ordained use and application is to praise and worship God, is being sidelined by man, in worship, and his desire for a more humanly acceptable musical melody (upbeat) and lyrical theological view. Clearly this has gone too far in the claphappy sing songs of many churches today.
What do you believe about musical instruments used in praise and worship?
The problem which hymn singers of today have is not just the music and lyrics per se!
It is the fact that a Book of the Bible, whose obvious ordained use and application is to praise and worship God, is being sidelined by man, in worship, and his desire for a more humanly acceptable musical melody (upbeat) and lyrical theological view.
Clearly this has gone too far in the claphappy sing songs of many churches today.
That was far to general a statement on my part and slightly tongue in cheek.I think the F.C.C ministers in Ness Point and Stornoway are totaly consistant as far as what they sing at home and in the church is concerned.
I was thinking of the other denominations inc C.O.S congredgations who practise exclusive psalmody or at least did a year or two ago.Probably it was unfair to mention the manses too as now fellowships or youthfellowships usually take place in the church or some hall outwith the main church, this is where mission praise usually slips in to the worship.
John UK wrote: I must say that I felt rather uneasy about it. Maybe the Lord is converting me.
Hi John; This is of course a very old debate. When it came up in the 19th century one statement was;
"John Kennedy, in the same Assembly, asked: “What view of God’s character is not unfolded in the Psalms? What aspect of his providence is not presented in them? What special dealing with His Church, individually or collectively, is not celebrated? What phase of spiritual feeling, from the deepest groan of agony and hopelessness to the highest ecstasy of triumphant joy is not expressed? And have we not in the psalms the grand facts of redemption in the historic form?” Referring to those who thought that hymns were needed for appropriate response to the “further light” of the New Testament, he said: “Have you further light? If so, bring it to the Psalms, and use it as a help to sing them with the understanding; and, the more you do so, I venture to assure you that you will meet with depths which you cannot sound and heights of attainment in faith and feeling which you are weak to climb.” from Psalms or Hymns in Public Worship
Mike wrote: What is important is spelled out in the words of Edward Mote in "The Solid Rock" My hope is built on nothing less Than Jesus' blood and righteousness; I dare not trust the sweetest frame, But wholly lean on Jesus' name. Refrain: ......... We sang this one at Church meeting this morning. A good reminder to be wary of "all other ground" that we might be tempted to build hope on. Speaking of said hope, I hope the rest of your evening is good and blessed.
BTW You do know the Book of Psalms is about Jesus too.
I hope God received your praise Mike. God be with you.
John UK wrote: Quote: " Good ol' Rain. And good comment about the (continuing) kirk. I wonder what he will have to say about that, or do you think he's a bit bigotted about his immersion stance?
"My ground is the Bible. Yea, I am a Bible-bigot. I follow it in all things, both great and small."
Mike wrote: 1) No one has said the purpose of hymns is to "improve upon the ordained book of praise, the Psalms."
2) I might remind you that Asaph and David were sinners
3) Are not some of "todays hymns" as old or older than the KJV, and spiritually sound? They aren't acid rock are they?
1) Then why change from inspired Scripture to uninspired works of man??
2) Are you here suggesting that God did not write the Bible??
3) "older than the KJV"?? - So? Are they also older than God who wrote the Scriptures?
You are still avoiding the basic premise that using hymns written by sinners today - Is replacing Psalms as ordained and written by God.
As I pointed out below are you going to replace any other books of the Bible; - by the same token of human emotional reaction to music and lyrics? IE That you "ENJOY" the experience better?
Psalms Only wrote: Can you write a better Bible than God did?-- WHY THEN do you believe sinners can improve upon the ordained Book of praise, the Psalms?? If you sing todays hymns there is no doubt that at times/or all times in worship you will put down the inspired Word of God to pick up the UNinspired music and lyrics of sinners. Sinners do not become inspired writers by simply quoting Bible themes. Also why should God replace His Bible praise at this/or any point in history? The challenge is always the same in Christian worship - By God - or by Man?? When man thinks he can improve the Bible - then he becomes his own god, that means he becomes Liberal!! --
No one has said the purpose of hymns is to "improve upon the ordained book of praise, the Psalms." That is quite out of your imagination. You do not need imaginary enemies if your position is sound.
We praise God for we have something to praise him about, is this not true?
I might remind you that Asaph and David were sinners, no less than Crosby, Wesley, or Luther. That you exclude them from the awful sinners who dare write praise is a wonder itself.
Are not some of "todays hymns" as old or older than the KJV, and spiritually sound? They aren't acid rock are they?
Psalms Only wrote: If you sing todays hymns there is no doubt that at times/or all times in worship you will put down the inspired Word of God to pick up the UNinspired music and lyrics of sinners.
Hello PO
I just got back from attending a church service, in which we sung four hymns, and I must say that I felt rather uneasy about it. Maybe the Lord is converting me.
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